Modal constructions and mood infixes

Started by Blue Elf, December 02, 2011, 03:20:46 AM

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Blue Elf

Do we have any information where go mood infixes (ei, äng, ats, uy) in modal constructions? The only I found comes from Horen leNa'vi:
Quote6.8.3.1. The verb controlled by the modal will not take any tense or aspect infixes, just the simple subjunctive. So, tense and aspect marking should go on the modal, oe namew tse'a I wanted to see, never *oe new tsimve'a. However, the controlled verb will keep its causative or reflexive marking.
Does it mean that mood infixes must go into modal verb only too?
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Carborundum

ei, äng, ats and uy are affects, not moods.

The source of the information you cite is this, where it is stated rather more clearly:

Quote from: wm.annis on October 14, 2010, 05:24:26 PM
The controlled verb will only get the pre-first infixes (causative, reflexive), and of course the subjunctive.

So, no affects either.
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Tirea Aean


Tanri

QuoteWhen using modals with controlled verbs, only the modals get tense and aspect marking.  The controlled verb will only get the pre-first infixes (causative, reflexive), and of course the subjunctive.
All sources I found speak only about tense and aspect. Isn't there a possibility that the affect infixes was simply forgotten?

It can be nice to be able to distinguish between modal and controlled verb, for example in "oe zene tsakem sivi":
"Oe zenänge tsakem sivi" - I don't like the fact that I must do something, but the action itself isn't irritating for me.
"Oe zene tsakem sivängi" - I understand that I must do something, but I don't like that action itself.
Tätxawyu akì'ong.

Tirea Aean

it may be up to context:

oe zenänge tsakem sivi
I must do that, not happy about it.

but if i knew you to be a person who hates doing that, i would know that the reason for äng is obvious. otherwise id ask to find out:

srake ngal tsakemit ve'vì / srake ngaru ke sunu tsakem?

Lance R. Casey

Quote from: Tanri on December 02, 2011, 11:57:14 AM
QuoteWhen using modals with controlled verbs, only the modals get tense and aspect marking.  The controlled verb will only get the pre-first infixes (causative, reflexive), and of course the subjunctive.
All sources I found speak only about tense and aspect. Isn't there a possibility that the affect infixes was simply forgotten?

It can be nice to be able to distinguish between modal and controlled verb, for example in "oe zene tsakem sivi":
"Oe zenänge tsakem sivi" - I don't like the fact that I must do something, but the action itself isn't irritating for me.
"Oe zene tsakem sivängi" - I understand that I must do something, but I don't like that action itself.
This is the source of the source referenced above:

   Default infixes go into the modal, the subordinate verb can only have the pre-first causative, reflexive or both. (And the subjunctive, of course.)

This is in turn summarized from the notes of one of the Ultxa Ayharyuä participants:

QuoteDefault infixes to go on the modal. "Po nolängew späpivong.[sic]" is correct.
 
Ei or äng refer to speakers opinion on the sentence. The only thing that can go in the subordinate verb is the pre-first causative, reflexive, or both. Everything else goes in the modal verb.

// Lance R. Casey

Tanri

QuoteDefault infixes to go on the modal. "Po nolängew späpivong.[sic]" is correct.
Ei or äng refer to speakers opinion on the sentence. The only thing that can go in the subordinate verb is the pre-first causative, reflexive, or both. Everything else goes in the modal verb.
Thank you, now it seems to be very clear.

Poor modal verbs with such a load of infixes ;D
Tätxawyu akì'ong.