Author Topic: -ol- vs -arm- for past states  (Read 842 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kame Ayyo’koti

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
  • us United States
  • Karma: 42
  • Poe a za’u sì kä
-ol- vs -arm- for past states
« on: June 14, 2014, 10:33:40 pm »
There is a sentence I've studied that describes the previous state of a person in this way:

Hìkrro mefo kakpam larmu mawkrra pxolor kunsìp.
The two of them were deaf for a short time after the gunship exploded.

This sentence describes a previous state the people were in, as opposed to an event that occured to them (such as "they became deaf" I suppose). I've thought about this and the use of <ol>, which packages an event as a whole that occured.

Would it be correct to say we should use <arm> or <ìrm> when speaking of past states?
Oe lìrmu ngeyn...
I was (just) tired (not long ago)...

Oeyä ikran larmu lom.
My Ikran was missing.
"Your work is to discover your world, and then with all your heart give yourself to it."

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9740
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 241
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: -ol- vs -arm- for past states
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2014, 11:49:10 pm »
What makes this a state is the fact you used lu, I think. And there's nothing special about it when it comes to using infixes with it so I'd say it is correct to say what you did.

The whole point of the aspects ol and er are to mark whether the action is completed (a snapshot or package as you called it) or is ongoing and incomplete. The idea with the tenses am ìm (present tense is just the root verb with no tense marking) ìy and ay is that they are simply for locating the action in Time. The compound in fixes just combine these ideas together.

I guess I say this... Remember aspect is more commonly marked than tense. And I guess make your choice of infix based on when the action occurred and whether or not it's complete or ongoing. See Horen Lì'fyayä leNa'vi page 41 Chapter 6.7 for info on tense and aspect.

One nit note: ngeyn and other emotions like ohakx, väng, etc. are used with 'efu instead of lu. You feel tired, instead of be tired in Na'vi. :)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 11:55:06 pm by Tirea Aean »

Learn Na'vi Discord Chat: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6082
  • Karma: 220
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: -ol- vs -arm- for past states
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2014, 06:08:40 am »
Hìkrro mefo kakpam larmu mawkrra pxolor kunsìp.
The two of them were deaf for a short time after the gunship exploded.

Interesting titbit about that sentence… We had a little discussion in the LEP when we prepared the document for submission to K. Pawl. First it was Mefo kakpam leru hìkrro mawkrra pxolor sawtuteyä ’awm. We changed it to lolu and back to leru in the cause of the process. It was submitted as leru. Pawl decided then to change it further to larmu. His reasoning behind that is of course not clear but I would interpret that as:
     - the explosion of the gunship is a finished action, it doesn’t matter to mark it for tense.
     - the time and duration/period of the deafness is more important, so it gets marked for tense and aspect.

That contradicts a bit my understanding so far for the co-operation of ‹er› and ‹ol› as frame narrative and selected events, as in
     Oel hu Txewì trram na’rìngit tarmok, tsole’a syeptutet atsawl frato mì sìrey.
     “Yesterday, when I was with Txewì in the forest, I saw the biggest person trapper in my life.”

     

but I guess the finished action is disconnected from the insident of deafness in this sentence.

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9741
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 319
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: -ol- vs -arm- for past states
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2014, 07:08:26 am »
Some points were mentioned in this thread Tense/aspect usage nìNa’vi.

Oe mllte hu Tirea sì Plumps. :)


Hìkrro mefo kakpam larmu mawkrra pxolor kunsìp.
The two of them were deaf for a short time after the gunship exploded.

Interesting titbit about that sentence… We had a little discussion in the LEP when we prepared the document for submission to K. Pawl. First it was Mefo kakpam leru hìkrro mawkrra pxolor sawtuteyä ’awm. We changed it to lolu and back to leru in the cause of the process. It was submitted as leru. Pawl decided then to change it further to larmu. His reasoning behind that is of course not clear but I would interpret that as:
     - the explosion of the gunship is a finished action, it doesn’t matter to mark it for tense.
     - the time and duration/period of the deafness is more important, so it gets marked for tense and aspect.
I was going to mention this stuff too.

As for LEP,
I think, one day, we should create a special document with tense/aspect thing and send it to Pawl. Not as regular LEP stuff, rather as a well-structured doc about tense and aspects. So that we have clarity about all these tense and aspects things and their correct use in (complex) sentences and stories.
We still waiting for that, kefyak? :)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 04:59:49 am by Tìtstewan »

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 239
  • Swirä letxon
Re: -ol- vs -arm- for past states
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2014, 07:19:08 am »
There are completely different meanings. -ol- means present state of completeness, -arm- - process of action in the past. For me more difficult is to explain the difference between -ol- and -am- because in Russian both are one grammatical form.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Blue Elf

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5499
  • cz Czech Republic
  • Karma: 112
    • My attempt for blog
Re: -ol- vs -arm- for past states
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2014, 11:34:40 am »
There are completely different meanings. -ol- means present state of completeness, -arm- - process of action in the past.
Very good explanation, I must remember it!
Quote
For me more difficult is to explain the difference between -ol- and -am- because in Russian both are one grammatical form.
Same in Czech, possibly in other Slavic languages. It's not possible distinguish past action and finished action as they both use the same form. Only context can help.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 239
  • Swirä letxon
Re: -ol- vs -arm- for past states
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2014, 02:53:49 pm »
I think, -ol- means current state of completeness, but -am- - an event in the past. Even when both mean one thing.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9741
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 319
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: -ol- vs -arm- for past states
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2014, 03:32:36 pm »
It is difficult for me to explain the whole concept of that.
I have explained it to me as:

Well, <ol> has usually not really to do with time like <am>, <ay>, <ìm>, <ìy>. <ol> marks an action like a "snapshot" (a completed action) and the time infixes describes when that "snapshot" was taken or will be taken (<alm>, <ìlm> vs <aly>, <ìly>). (I know it is weird written but it fit as best...) So, <ol> can take the role of the past time infixes to prevent repetitions of the same time infixes in sentences and stories. In stories, it would be enough that the first verb have a time infix only and all ather verbs could have <ol>, if the whole story context is clear.


-----
Btw, wm.annis could update/rework his post here Na'vi Linguistics: Tense and Aspect :-\

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy
| XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, or the Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi