Author Topic: Plural prefixes?  (Read 2906 times)

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Offline pxenari

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Plural prefixes?
« on: June 21, 2011, 05:05:50 pm »
Ok, so i was wondering about how far the plural prefixes go, for example:

Would "You three are morons!" equal "Pxenga lu pxeskxawng" or just "Pxenga lu skxawng"?

Can you use ay+ for any amount (even two or three) if you feel lazy, or is it strictly forbidden in the case of two or three?
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2011, 05:36:52 pm »
Ok, so i was wondering about how far the plural prefixes go, for example:

Would "You three are morons!" equal "Pxenga lu pxeskxawng" or just "Pxenga lu skxawng"?

There has not been an official ruling from Frommer on this.  I tend to think you'll have to use identical plural marking most of the time.

Quote
Can you use ay+ for any amount (even two or three) if you feel lazy, or is it strictly forbidden in the case of two or three?

Since Frommer expresses embarrassment when he messes up, and uses a plural where a dual more properly goes, I'd try to pick the right one.
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Offline Lisa

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2011, 08:57:10 am »
Would "You three are morons!" equal "Pxenga lu pxeskxawng" or just "Pxenga lu skxawng"?

There has not been an official ruling from Frommer on this.  I tend to think you'll have to use identical plural marking most of the time.

I'm curious... could you put the plural "ay" on skxawng?  Pxenga lu ayskxawng!   As in, "You three are (members of the larger) morons (group)".    ???
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Offline Ftxavanga Txe′lan

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2011, 09:01:02 am »
Would "You three are morons!" equal "Pxenga lu pxeskxawng" or just "Pxenga lu skxawng"?

There has not been an official ruling from Frommer on this.  I tend to think you'll have to use identical plural marking most of the time.

I'm curious... could you put the plural "ay" on skxawng?  Pxenga lu ayskxawng!   As in, "You three are (members of the larger) morons (group)".    ???

Hm, I think I would say no to that. :) Let's see what the others think! :D

Offline Alyara Arati

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2011, 09:10:09 am »
I think you must use "pxeskawng" unless you actually want to say "pxehapxìtu ponguä ayskxawgä", which seems awkward to me, but...
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Offline Tanri

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2011, 02:29:52 pm »
Ok, so i was wondering about how far the plural prefixes go, for example:
Would "You three are morons!" equal "Pxenga lu pxeskxawng" or just "Pxenga lu skxawng"?
Can you use ay+ for any amount (even two or three) if you feel lazy, or is it strictly forbidden in the case of two or three?
I think that "Pxenga lu skxawng" is correct (or at least acceptable), but if you use plurals on both sides of "lu", they should be identical (me+/me+, ay+/ay+ etc.). Unfortunately i don't remember the source for this "feeling", so think about it as about my opinion only.
In contrast with that, "ay+" is truly used only as generic plural (4 or more), for two or three of something we must specifically use me+ / pxe+.
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Offline Kamean

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2011, 02:43:21 pm »
NiaN: "Moe lu ayharyu" - forbidden. If you want double plural only "Moe lu meharyu" are acceptable.
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Offline Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2011, 03:24:35 pm »
we can avoid the trouble in this case by using leskxawng.
I'm also not sure about that problem. somehow two times the same prefix seems awkward to me but without it it feels also not right. :-\ :-\
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Offline pxenari

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2011, 04:23:46 pm »
This was a sterange tought process for me, but hey, it's an alien language. No one on Earth is going to say "You three are three morons!" I just had to make sure.


we can avoid the trouble in this case by using leskxawng.

Leskxawng would just be the equivalent of stupid, right?

I think you must use "pxeskawng" unless you actually want to say "pxehapxìtu ponguä ayskxawgä", which seems awkward to me, but...

What exactly would that translate to?
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Offline Alyara Arati

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2011, 04:33:43 pm »
This was a sterange tought process for me, but hey, it's an alien language. No one on Earth is going to say "You three are three morons!" I just had to make sure.


we can avoid the trouble in this case by using leskxawng.

Leskxawng would just be the equivalent of stupid, right?

I think you must use "pxeskawng" unless you actually want to say "pxehapxìtu ponguä ayskxawgä", which seems awkward to me, but...

What exactly would that translate to?

Yes, "leskxawng" would mean "moronic", but is it an official word?  And the other translates literally as "three members of the group of morons."
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Offline Kamean

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2011, 04:39:11 pm »
Yes, "leskxawng" would mean "moronic", but is it an official word?  And the other translates literally as "three members of the group of morons."
I don't know. But it seems correct.
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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2011, 11:18:14 pm »
Yes, "leskxawng" would mean "moronic", but is it an official word?  And the other translates literally as "three members of the group of morons."
I don't know. But it seems correct.

I don't recall that it is an official word....although it has naturally caught on 8)

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Offline Carborundum

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2011, 03:43:06 am »
This was a sterange tought process for me, but hey, it's an alien language. No one on Earth is going to say "You three are three morons!" I just had to make sure.
Many on Earth would, in fact, say just that. Most languages where dual and trial grammatical numbers exist do this.

It would be far stranger to say "you three are an undefined number of morons", wouldn't you agree?
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Offline Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2011, 05:38:47 am »
This was a sterange tought process for me, but hey, it's an alien language. No one on Earth is going to say "You three are three morons!" I just had to make sure.
Many on Earth would, in fact, say just that. Most languages where dual and trial grammatical numbers exist do this.

It would be far stranger to say "you three are an undefined number of morons", wouldn't you agree?
but the number is obvious, and Na'vi is a language that likes implications from context.
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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2011, 07:09:37 am »
This was a sterange tought process for me, but hey, it's an alien language. No one on Earth is going to say "You three are three morons!" I just had to make sure.
Many on Earth would, in fact, say just that. Most languages where dual and trial grammatical numbers exist do this.

It would be far stranger to say "you three are an undefined number of morons", wouldn't you agree?
but the number is obvious, and Na'vi is a language that likes implications from context.

I think I did hear at some point that most people tend to overuse infixes. In this case, skxawng is not lenited and, therefore, ay- must be used to indicate the general plural (kefyak?); however, in some cases, the use of the general plural for the second word would be a way to remove an infix (as in eylan, for instance). So perhaps that method would apply the 'don't overuse infixes' principle better.

But on the other hand, I also remember reading about the obligation of using the same plural form for two words that are connected.. :-\

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2011, 10:01:33 am »
I think I did hear at some point that most people tend to overuse infixes.
That was probably referring to the verb tense infixes (-am-, -ìm-, -ìy-, -ay-), not to me+ and pxe+ (which are prefixes anyway).

I'd say that something like "Pxenga lu ayskxawng" should be considered incorrect until proven otherwise, since its being correct would imply the existence of a grammar rule which we have no evidence for: that ay+ could mean 2 or 3 when it's on the complement of lu, even though we know ay+ does not have this flexibility elsewhere.
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Offline Ftxavanga Txe′lan

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2011, 10:06:19 am »
I think I did hear at some point that most people tend to overuse infixes.
That was probably referring to the verb tense infixes (-am-, -ìm-, -ìy-, -ay-), not to me+ and pxe+ (which are prefixes anyway).

I'd say that something like "Pxenga lu ayskxawng" should be considered incorrect until proven otherwise, since its being correct would imply the existence of a grammar rule which we have no evidence for: that ay+ could mean 2 or 3 when it's on the complement of lu, even though we know ay+ does not have this flexibility elsewhere.

True! I tend to think that infixes include prefixes and suffixes, but that's false, right? They're actually only found in the middle of words? But then, I don't really understand how it would be possible to overuse verb tenses. Are they not necessary?

Your explanation does make a lot of sense, I think I must agree with you! :)

Offline Carborundum

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2011, 10:32:23 am »
but the number is obvious, and Na'vi is a language that likes implications from context.
In a statement like 'I have eyes' the number of eyes is also obvious, and yet it must be explicitly marked as dual in Na'vi.

Na'vi frequently drops pronouns and isn't terribly concerned with either tense or aspect, but that doesn't mean plurality behaves in the same manner.
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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2011, 03:08:45 pm »
but the number is obvious, and Na'vi is a language that likes implications from context.
In a statement like 'I have eyes' the number of eyes is also obvious, and yet it must be explicitly marked as dual in Na'vi.
I think that's because there are creatures on Pandora with more eyes than two. ikrans for example have two tiny eyes in addition to their "normal" ones.

I think I did hear at some point that most people tend to overuse infixes.
That was probably referring to the verb tense infixes (-am-, -ìm-, -ìy-, -ay-), not to me+ and pxe+ (which are prefixes anyway).

I'd say that something like "Pxenga lu ayskxawng" should be considered incorrect until proven otherwise, since its being correct would imply the existence of a grammar rule which we have no evidence for: that ay+ could mean 2 or 3 when it's on the complement of lu, even though we know ay+ does not have this flexibility elsewhere.

True! I tend to think that infixes include prefixes and suffixes, but that's false, right? They're actually only found in the middle of words? But then, I don't really understand how it would be possible to overuse verb tenses. Are they not necessary?
once a tense has been established with an infix you can leave all verbs that come after it not infixed since the tense is already established and implied. you can continue that way until you change tense or aspect.

I think I did hear at some point that most people tend to overuse infixes.
That was probably referring to the verb tense infixes (-am-, -ìm-, -ìy-, -ay-), not to me+ and pxe+ (which are prefixes anyway).

I'd say that something like "Pxenga lu ayskxawng" should be considered incorrect until proven otherwise, since its being correct would imply the existence of a grammar rule which we have no evidence for: that ay+ could mean 2 or 3 when it's on the complement of lu, even though we know ay+ does not have this flexibility elsewhere.
actually I meant to leave skxawng unprefixed (pxenga lu skxawng). pxenga lu ayskxawng is definitely wrong.
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Offline Ftxavanga Txe′lan

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Re: Plural prefixes?
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2011, 03:19:48 pm »
once a tense has been established with an infix you can leave all verbs that come after it not infixed since the tense is already established and implied. you can continue that way until you change tense or aspect.

Oh okay, tslolam! :) It makes sense.

actually I meant to leave skxawng unprefixed (pxenga lu skxawng). pxenga lu ayskxawng is definitely wrong.

But doesn't the absence of prefix imply an invisible ay-? Or have I understood things wrong again? :P

 

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