Plural prefixes?

Started by pxenari, June 21, 2011, 05:05:50 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

pxenari

Ok, so i was wondering about how far the plural prefixes go, for example:

Would "You three are morons!" equal "Pxenga lu pxeskxawng" or just "Pxenga lu skxawng"?

Can you use ay+ for any amount (even two or three) if you feel lazy, or is it strictly forbidden in the case of two or three?
Oeru syaw fko Taronyu

(literally, my name is Hunter)

wm.annis

Quote from: pxenari on June 21, 2011, 05:05:50 PM
Ok, so i was wondering about how far the plural prefixes go, for example:

Would "You three are morons!" equal "Pxenga lu pxeskxawng" or just "Pxenga lu skxawng"?

There has not been an official ruling from Frommer on this.  I tend to think you'll have to use identical plural marking most of the time.

QuoteCan you use ay+ for any amount (even two or three) if you feel lazy, or is it strictly forbidden in the case of two or three?

Since Frommer expresses embarrassment when he messes up, and uses a plural where a dual more properly goes, I'd try to pick the right one.

Lisa

Quote from: wm.annis on June 21, 2011, 05:36:52 PM
Quote from: pxenari on June 21, 2011, 05:05:50 PM
Would "You three are morons!" equal "Pxenga lu pxeskxawng" or just "Pxenga lu skxawng"?

There has not been an official ruling from Frommer on this.  I tend to think you'll have to use identical plural marking most of the time.

I'm curious... could you put the plural "ay" on skxawng?  Pxenga lu ayskxawng!   As in, "You three are (members of the larger) morons (group)".    ???
Oeru syaw "Tirea Ikran" kop slä frakrrmi layu oe "Grammar Skxawng"   :)

Ftxavanga Txe′lan

Quote from: Lisa on June 22, 2011, 08:57:10 AM
Quote from: wm.annis on June 21, 2011, 05:36:52 PM
Quote from: pxenari on June 21, 2011, 05:05:50 PM
Would "You three are morons!" equal "Pxenga lu pxeskxawng" or just "Pxenga lu skxawng"?

There has not been an official ruling from Frommer on this.  I tend to think you'll have to use identical plural marking most of the time.

I'm curious... could you put the plural "ay" on skxawng?  Pxenga lu ayskxawng!   As in, "You three are (members of the larger) morons (group)".    ???

Hm, I think I would say no to that. :) Let's see what the others think! :D

Alyara Arati

I think you must use "pxeskawng" unless you actually want to say "pxehapxìtu ponguä ayskxawgä", which seems awkward to me, but...
Learn how to see.  Realize that everything connects to everything else.
~ Leonardo da Vinci

Tanri

Quote from: pxenari on June 21, 2011, 05:05:50 PM
Ok, so i was wondering about how far the plural prefixes go, for example:
Would "You three are morons!" equal "Pxenga lu pxeskxawng" or just "Pxenga lu skxawng"?
Can you use ay+ for any amount (even two or three) if you feel lazy, or is it strictly forbidden in the case of two or three?
I think that "Pxenga lu skxawng" is correct (or at least acceptable), but if you use plurals on both sides of "lu", they should be identical (me+/me+, ay+/ay+ etc.). Unfortunately i don't remember the source for this "feeling", so think about it as about my opinion only.
In contrast with that, "ay+" is truly used only as generic plural (4 or more), for two or three of something we must specifically use me+ / pxe+.
Tätxawyu akì'ong.

Kamean

NiaN: "Moe lu ayharyu" - forbidden. If you want double plural only "Moe lu meharyu" are acceptable.
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

we can avoid the trouble in this case by using leskxawng.
I'm also not sure about that problem. somehow two times the same prefix seems awkward to me but without it it feels also not right. :-\ :-\
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

pxenari

This was a sterange tought process for me, but hey, it's an alien language. No one on Earth is going to say "You three are three morons!" I just had to make sure.


Quote from: Tswusayona Tsamsiyu on June 22, 2011, 03:24:35 PM
we can avoid the trouble in this case by using leskxawng.

Leskxawng would just be the equivalent of stupid, right?

Quote from: Alyara Arati on June 22, 2011, 09:10:09 AM
I think you must use "pxeskawng" unless you actually want to say "pxehapxìtu ponguä ayskxawgä", which seems awkward to me, but...

What exactly would that translate to?
Oeru syaw fko Taronyu

(literally, my name is Hunter)

Alyara Arati

Quote from: pxenari on June 22, 2011, 04:23:46 PM
This was a sterange tought process for me, but hey, it's an alien language. No one on Earth is going to say "You three are three morons!" I just had to make sure.


Quote from: Tswusayona Tsamsiyu on June 22, 2011, 03:24:35 PM
we can avoid the trouble in this case by using leskxawng.

Leskxawng would just be the equivalent of stupid, right?

Quote from: Alyara Arati on June 22, 2011, 09:10:09 AM
I think you must use "pxeskawng" unless you actually want to say "pxehapxìtu ponguä ayskxawgä", which seems awkward to me, but...

What exactly would that translate to?

Yes, "leskxawng" would mean "moronic", but is it an official word?  And the other translates literally as "three members of the group of morons."
Learn how to see.  Realize that everything connects to everything else.
~ Leonardo da Vinci

Kamean

Quote from: Alyara Arati on June 22, 2011, 04:33:43 PM
Yes, "leskxawng" would mean "moronic", but is it an official word?  And the other translates literally as "three members of the group of morons."
I don't know. But it seems correct.
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


'Oma Tirea

Quote from: Kamean on June 22, 2011, 04:39:11 PM
Quote from: Alyara Arati on June 22, 2011, 04:33:43 PM
Yes, "leskxawng" would mean "moronic", but is it an official word?  And the other translates literally as "three members of the group of morons."
I don't know. But it seems correct.

I don't recall that it is an official word....although it has naturally caught on 8)

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Carborundum

Quote from: pxenari on June 22, 2011, 04:23:46 PM
This was a sterange tought process for me, but hey, it's an alien language. No one on Earth is going to say "You three are three morons!" I just had to make sure.
Many on Earth would, in fact, say just that. Most languages where dual and trial grammatical numbers exist do this.

It would be far stranger to say "you three are an undefined number of morons", wouldn't you agree?
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

Quote from: Carborundum on June 23, 2011, 03:43:06 AM
Quote from: pxenari on June 22, 2011, 04:23:46 PM
This was a sterange tought process for me, but hey, it's an alien language. No one on Earth is going to say "You three are three morons!" I just had to make sure.
Many on Earth would, in fact, say just that. Most languages where dual and trial grammatical numbers exist do this.

It would be far stranger to say "you three are an undefined number of morons", wouldn't you agree?
but the number is obvious, and Na'vi is a language that likes implications from context.
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Ftxavanga Txe′lan

Quote from: Tswusayona Tsamsiyu on June 23, 2011, 05:38:47 AM
Quote from: Carborundum on June 23, 2011, 03:43:06 AM
Quote from: pxenari on June 22, 2011, 04:23:46 PM
This was a sterange tought process for me, but hey, it's an alien language. No one on Earth is going to say "You three are three morons!" I just had to make sure.
Many on Earth would, in fact, say just that. Most languages where dual and trial grammatical numbers exist do this.

It would be far stranger to say "you three are an undefined number of morons", wouldn't you agree?
but the number is obvious, and Na'vi is a language that likes implications from context.

I think I did hear at some point that most people tend to overuse infixes. In this case, skxawng is not lenited and, therefore, ay- must be used to indicate the general plural (kefyak?); however, in some cases, the use of the general plural for the second word would be a way to remove an infix (as in eylan, for instance). So perhaps that method would apply the 'don't overuse infixes' principle better.

But on the other hand, I also remember reading about the obligation of using the same plural form for two words that are connected.. :-\

Kä'eng

Quote from: Ftxavanga Txe′lan on June 23, 2011, 07:09:37 AM
I think I did hear at some point that most people tend to overuse infixes.
That was probably referring to the verb tense infixes (-am-, -ìm-, -ìy-, -ay-), not to me+ and pxe+ (which are prefixes anyway).

I'd say that something like "Pxenga lu ayskxawng" should be considered incorrect until proven otherwise, since its being correct would imply the existence of a grammar rule which we have no evidence for: that ay+ could mean 2 or 3 when it's on the complement of lu, even though we know ay+ does not have this flexibility elsewhere.
Ma evi, ke'u ke lu prrte' to fwa sim tuteot ayawne.
Slä txo tuteo fmi 'ivampi ngat ro seng, fu nìfya'o, a 'eykefu ngati vä', tsakem ke lu sìltsan.
Tsaw lu ngeyä tokx! Kawtu ke tsun nìmuiä 'ivampi ngat txo ngal ke new tsakemit.
Ha kempe si nga? Nì'awve, nga plltxe san kehe. Tsakrr, ngal tsatsengti hum!

Ftxavanga Txe′lan

Quote from: Kä'eng on June 23, 2011, 10:01:33 AM
Quote from: Ftxavanga Txe′lan on June 23, 2011, 07:09:37 AM
I think I did hear at some point that most people tend to overuse infixes.
That was probably referring to the verb tense infixes (-am-, -ìm-, -ìy-, -ay-), not to me+ and pxe+ (which are prefixes anyway).

I'd say that something like "Pxenga lu ayskxawng" should be considered incorrect until proven otherwise, since its being correct would imply the existence of a grammar rule which we have no evidence for: that ay+ could mean 2 or 3 when it's on the complement of lu, even though we know ay+ does not have this flexibility elsewhere.

True! I tend to think that infixes include prefixes and suffixes, but that's false, right? They're actually only found in the middle of words? But then, I don't really understand how it would be possible to overuse verb tenses. Are they not necessary?

Your explanation does make a lot of sense, I think I must agree with you! :)

Carborundum

Quote from: Tswusayona Tsamsiyu on June 23, 2011, 05:38:47 AM
but the number is obvious, and Na'vi is a language that likes implications from context.
In a statement like 'I have eyes' the number of eyes is also obvious, and yet it must be explicitly marked as dual in Na'vi.

Na'vi frequently drops pronouns and isn't terribly concerned with either tense or aspect, but that doesn't mean plurality behaves in the same manner.
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

Quote from: Carborundum on June 23, 2011, 10:32:23 AM
Quote from: Tswusayona Tsamsiyu on June 23, 2011, 05:38:47 AM
but the number is obvious, and Na'vi is a language that likes implications from context.
In a statement like 'I have eyes' the number of eyes is also obvious, and yet it must be explicitly marked as dual in Na'vi.
I think that's because there are creatures on Pandora with more eyes than two. ikrans for example have two tiny eyes in addition to their "normal" ones.

Quote from: Ftxavanga Txe′lan on June 23, 2011, 10:06:19 AM
Quote from: Kä'eng on June 23, 2011, 10:01:33 AM
Quote from: Ftxavanga Txe′lan on June 23, 2011, 07:09:37 AM
I think I did hear at some point that most people tend to overuse infixes.
That was probably referring to the verb tense infixes (-am-, -ìm-, -ìy-, -ay-), not to me+ and pxe+ (which are prefixes anyway).

I'd say that something like "Pxenga lu ayskxawng" should be considered incorrect until proven otherwise, since its being correct would imply the existence of a grammar rule which we have no evidence for: that ay+ could mean 2 or 3 when it's on the complement of lu, even though we know ay+ does not have this flexibility elsewhere.

True! I tend to think that infixes include prefixes and suffixes, but that's false, right? They're actually only found in the middle of words? But then, I don't really understand how it would be possible to overuse verb tenses. Are they not necessary?
once a tense has been established with an infix you can leave all verbs that come after it not infixed since the tense is already established and implied. you can continue that way until you change tense or aspect.

Quote from: Kä'eng on June 23, 2011, 10:01:33 AM
Quote from: Ftxavanga Txe′lan on June 23, 2011, 07:09:37 AM
I think I did hear at some point that most people tend to overuse infixes.
That was probably referring to the verb tense infixes (-am-, -ìm-, -ìy-, -ay-), not to me+ and pxe+ (which are prefixes anyway).

I'd say that something like "Pxenga lu ayskxawng" should be considered incorrect until proven otherwise, since its being correct would imply the existence of a grammar rule which we have no evidence for: that ay+ could mean 2 or 3 when it's on the complement of lu, even though we know ay+ does not have this flexibility elsewhere.
actually I meant to leave skxawng unprefixed (pxenga lu skxawng). pxenga lu ayskxawng is definitely wrong.
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Ftxavanga Txe′lan

Quote from: Tswusayona Tsamsiyu on June 23, 2011, 03:08:45 PM
once a tense has been established with an infix you can leave all verbs that come after it not infixed since the tense is already established and implied. you can continue that way until you change tense or aspect.

Oh okay, tslolam! :) It makes sense.

Quote from: Tswusayona Tsamsiyu on June 23, 2011, 03:08:45 PMactually I meant to leave skxawng unprefixed (pxenga lu skxawng). pxenga lu ayskxawng is definitely wrong.

But doesn't the absence of prefix imply an invisible ay-? Or have I understood things wrong again? :P