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Offline Swoka Tsamsiyu

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Practise.
« on: February 12, 2013, 05:42:26 am »
Kaltxì frapo,
I've been tinkering with the infixes and made a little exercise. Please commend if I did it right and if not so what's wrong and why. This way it's easier for me to grasp certain things... :D I took the root word "yom" - eat. If I'm correct there's no il- it thing involved here, so no "oel". Or am I wrong?

Oe y<aly>om (I know there cannot be 2 "y"s)
I will have eaten

Oe y<ary>om
I will be eating

Oe y<ìly>om
I will soon have eaten

Oe y<ìry>om
I will soon be eating

Oe y<ìrm>yom (I wasn't sure to take out the "y" in yom, I think it needs to go but I am not sure of that)
I was just eating

Oe y<ìlm>yom (same as the last one)
I have just eaten

Oe y<arm>yom (same as the last one)
I was eating

Oe y<alm>yom (same as the last one)
I had eaten

Irayo for any help!

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 05:54:56 am »
Kaltxì
Oe y<aly>om (I know there cannot be 2 "y"s)
I will have eaten

Oe y<ary>om
I will be eating

Oe y<ìly>om
I will soon have eaten

Oe y<ìry>om
I will soon be eating
So it would be correct.

Oe y<ìrm>yom (I wasn't sure to take out the "y" in yom, I think it needs to go but I am not sure of that)
I was just eating

Oe y<ìlm>yom (same as the last one)
I have just eaten

Oe y<arm>yom (same as the last one)
I was eating

Oe y<alm>yom (same as the last one)
I had eaten
Why do you write 'y' twice?

Oe y<ìrm>om
I was just eating

Oe y<ìlm>om
I have just eaten

Oe y<arm>om
I was eating

Oe y<alm>om
I had eaten


If I'm correct there's no il- it thing involved here, so no "oel". Or am I wrong?
'Who is doing what with whom' :)

The Yerik hearing us. => ayyerikìl awngati stawm
We hearing the Yerik => ayyerikit awngal stawm
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 06:06:00 am by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Swoka Tsamsiyu

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2013, 08:23:21 am »
Kaltxì ma Tìtstewan,
Irayo for the input. This will help. I already suspected in the bottom half of the words that the "y" needed to go but wasn't sure of it. No I know that my gut feeling was right ;D

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2013, 08:32:22 am »
Nìprrte'

You just have to look in the dictionary to the 'point' in a word:
yom: [j·om] PF vtr. eat
--> y<infix>om

 ;) ;)

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2013, 10:36:13 am »
Late to say all the things Tìtstewan has said.

yeah, a rule of thumb is never delete letters which are from the root word. And "yy" is fine for example in ayyerik (ay+ yerik). And in cases like si + <ei> a y is inserted to prevent two "i" in a row (ii) *seii -> seiyi. Therefore, no part of any infix, and no part of any root can be desstroyed or deleted. The only time this happens is when you have a verb containing ll or rr, like plltxe or frrfen. plltxe + <ol> = *pollltxe -> poltxe, frrfen + <er> = *ferrrfen -> frrfen

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2013, 01:16:18 pm »
Late to say all the things Tìtstewan has said.

yeah, a rule of thumb is never delete letters which are from the root word. And "yy" is fine for example in ayyerik (ay+ yerik). And in cases like si + <ei> a y is inserted to prevent two "i" in a row (ii) *seii -> seiyi. Therefore, no part of any infix, and no part of any root can be destroyed or deleted. The only time this happens is when you have a verb containing ll or rr, like plltxe or frrfen. plltxe + <ol> = *pollltxe -> poltxe, frrfen + <er> = *ferrrfen -> frrfen

However, some syllables can combine (but, again, not be destroyed). Most notably that double vowels of the same sound can't sit next to each other. So, usually one is deleted or it follows the rules Tirea Aean gave (inserting a "y" and so on). I believe, but can't seem to find the rule, that similar sounds combine. Obviously they would in rapid speech but I believe also in writing as well.

I've copy-pasted most of the applicable known rules from Horen below:

Quote
2.3. Morphophonology

2.3.1. Vowel Contraction. Since identical vowels may not occur next to each other, a few grammatical processes involve a doubled vowel reducing to just one.

2.3.1.1. The adjective morpheme -a- disappears when attached to an a at the start or end of an adjective, as in apxa tute not *apxaa tute.

2.3.1.2. When the dual and trial prefixes leave a sequence of two es, as in me + ’eveng > *meeveng (note lenition), the two vowels contract to just one, meveng. Wiki (20/1/2010)

2.3.1.3. When the pronoun prefixes end in the same vowel the following word starts with, they reduce to one, as in tsatan < tsa- + atan, fìlva < fì- + ìlva (§3.3.6). 1 Wiki (18/5/2011)

2.3.1.4. Contraction does not occur for indefinite -o or enclitic adpositions. When two identical vowels occur next to each other, they are written with a hyphen between them, fya’o-o some way, zekwä-äo under a finger. 2

2.3.2. Pseudovowel Contraction. Due to the shape of the aspect infixes, ‹er› and ‹ol›, it is possible for the pseudovowels to occur immediately after their consonantal counterpart, as in *p‹ol›lltxe. When this happens in an unstressed syllable, the pseudovowel disappears, poltxe. In a stressed syllable, the infix disappears, *f‹er›rrfen > frrfen. Pseudovowels in monsyllables behave as though unaccented, vol from *v‹ol›ll. Wiki (23/3/2010) NT (19/6/2012)

2.3.3. Affect Infix Epenthesis. When the positive affect infix ‹ei› is followed by the vowel i, ì or a pseudovowel, a y is inserted, seiyi < *s‹ei›i, veykrreiyìn < *veykrr‹ei›ìn; veiyll < *veill. NT (19/6/2012)

2.3.4. Nasal Assimilation. In many compounds as well as in some idioms, final nasals assimilate to the position of the following word, as in lumpe as a variant of pelun. Such assimilation is not always written, which may make the etymology of a word clearer, as in zenke instead of *zengke, from zene ke, or in the several idioms with the verb tìng give, tìng mikyun being pronounced tìm mikyun.

2.3.5. Vowel Harmony. Na’vi has two instances of optional regressive vowel harmony in verb infixes.

2.3.5.1. The subjunctive future infix, ‹iyev›, most frequently appears as ‹ìyev›, with backing of the first vowel.

2.3.5.2. The vowel of the negative attitude infix, ‹äng›, may be raised if it is immediately followed by the vowel i, becoming ‹eng›, as in tsap’alute sengi oe. Ultxa (2/10/2010)

2.3.6. Elision. In rapid speech final -e is frequently elided when the following word starts in a vowel. Kìyevam̸e ult̸e Eywa ngahu. This is not indicated in writing.

2.3.6.1. The vowel ì in mì, sì and the adverb prefix nì- drops before the plural prefix ay+, though there is no change in writing. So, nìayfo like them is pronounced as nayfo. NT (1/7/2010)



1 The glottal stop is a consonant, so fì’ìheyu from fì- + ’ìheyu.
2 Though Na’vi does not technically have long vowels, the effect of long vowels occurs in this situation. Take care to pronounce both ä in a word such as zekwä-äo.




2.4. Orthographic Conventions

...
2.4.3.2. Before words starting with y the plural prefix ay+ is unchanged, ayyerik.
...
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 09:14:38 pm by Ftiafpi »

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2013, 01:27:59 pm »
Nìprrte'

You just have to look in the dictionary to the 'point' in a word:
yom: [j·om] PF vtr. eat
--> y<infix>om

 ;) ;)

Very general rules, that infix positions are in last and last but one syllable, just in front of vowel.
t<0><1>ar<2>on
position 0 is for äp, eyk
position 1 is for am/ìm/ìy/ay/ol/er and their combination
position 2 is for ei/äng/ats/uy
For single syllable verb all infixes go into this single syllable:
y<0><1><2>om

However there is exception for compound verb - you must check dictionary. Usually infixes go into verbal part - pänut<1><2><3>ìng (pänu + tìng = pänutìng, promise, "give a promise")

And for si verb infixes go into si part - irayo s<0><1><2>i
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2013, 01:32:04 pm »
That's right, but in this cause I would explain more easy. ;)

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2013, 01:33:13 pm »
Late to say all the things Tìtstewan has said.

yeah, a rule of thumb is never delete letters which are from the root word. And "yy" is fine for example in ayyerik (ay+ yerik). And in cases like si + <ei> a y is inserted to prevent two "i" in a row (ii) *seii -> seiyi. Therefore, no part of any infix, and no part of any root can be destroyed or deleted. The only time this happens is when you have a verb containing ll or rr, like plltxe or frrfen. plltxe + <ol> = *pollltxe -> poltxe, frrfen + <er> = *ferrrfen -> frrfen

However, some syllables can combine (but, again, not be destroyed). Most notably that double vowels of the same sound can't sit next to each other. So, usually one is deleted or it follows the rules Tirea Aean gave (inserting a "y" and so on). I believe, but can't seem to find the rule, that similar sounds combine. Obviously they would in rapid speech but I believe also in writing as well.

For example: home + patientive suffix + from (adposition) = kelku + t + ta- > kelkuta

I've copy-pasted most of the applicable known rules from Horen below:

Quote
2.3. Morphophonology

2.3.1. Vowel Contraction. Since identical vowels may not occur next to each other, a few grammatical processes involve a doubled vowel reducing to just one.

2.3.1.1. The adjective morpheme -a- disappears when attached to an a at the start or end of an adjective, as in apxa tute not *apxaa tute.

2.3.1.2. When the dual and trial prefixes leave a sequence of two es, as in me + ’eveng > *meeveng (note lenition), the two vowels contract to just one, meveng. Wiki (20/1/2010)

2.3.1.3. When the pronoun prefixes end in the same vowel the following word starts with, they reduce to one, as in tsatan < tsa- + atan, fìlva < fì- + ìlva (§3.3.6). 1 Wiki (18/5/2011)

2.3.1.4. Contraction does not occur for indefinite -o or enclitic adpositions. When two identical vowels occur next to each other, they are written with a hyphen between them, fya’o-o some way, zekwä-äo under a finger. 2

2.3.2. Pseudovowel Contraction. Due to the shape of the aspect infixes, ‹er› and ‹ol›, it is possible for the pseudovowels to occur immediately after their consonantal counterpart, as in *p‹ol›lltxe. When this happens in an unstressed syllable, the pseudovowel disappears, poltxe. In a stressed syllable, the infix disappears, *f‹er›rrfen > frrfen. Pseudovowels in monsyllables behave as though unaccented, vol from *v‹ol›ll. Wiki (23/3/2010) NT (19/6/2012)

2.3.3. Affect Infix Epenthesis. When the positive affect infix ‹ei› is followed by the vowel i, ì or a pseudovowel, a y is inserted, seiyi < *s‹ei›i, veykrreiyìn < *veykrr‹ei›ìn; veiyll < *veill. NT (19/6/2012)

2.3.4. Nasal Assimilation. In many compounds as well as in some idioms, final nasals assimilate to the position of the following word, as in lumpe as a variant of pelun. Such assimilation is not always written, which may make the etymology of a word clearer, as in zenke instead of *zengke, from zene ke, or in the several idioms with the verb tìng give, tìng mikyun being pronounced tìm mikyun.

2.3.5. Vowel Harmony. Na’vi has two instances of optional regressive vowel harmony in verb infixes.

2.3.5.1. The subjunctive future infix, ‹iyev›, most frequently appears as ‹ìyev›, with backing of the first vowel.

2.3.5.2. The vowel of the negative attitude infix, ‹äng›, may be raised if it is immediately followed by the vowel i, becoming ‹eng›, as in tsap’alute sengi oe. Ultxa (2/10/2010)

2.3.6. Elision. In rapid speech final -e is frequently elided when the following word starts in a vowel. Kìyevam̸e ult̸e Eywa ngahu. This is not indicated in writing.

2.3.6.1. The vowel ì in mì, sì and the adverb prefix nì- drops before the plural prefix ay+, though there is no change in writing. So, nìayfo like them is pronounced as nayfo. NT (1/7/2010)



1 The glottal stop is a consonant, so fì’ìheyu from fì- + ’ìheyu.
2 Though Na’vi does not technically have long vowels, the effect of long vowels occurs in this situation. Take care to pronounce both ä in a word such as zekwä-äo.




2.4. Orthographic Conventions

...
2.4.3.2. Before words starting with y the plural prefix ay+ is unchanged, ayyerik.
...

It's not even grammatically possible to use cases with adpositions.. but I think I get the point

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Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2013, 09:05:52 pm »

It's not even grammatically possible to use cases with adpositions.. but I think I get the point

Oh, whoops. My bad. I've fixed my earlier post.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 09:16:04 pm by Ftiafpi »

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2013, 11:21:00 pm »
Quote
For example: home + patientive suffix + from (adposition) = kelku + t + ta- > kelkuta

 :o :o :o

I think we can't use adpositions with another cases except nominative. What would it mean: kelku + t + ta:-\ :-\ :-\
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2013, 11:22:41 pm »
Quote
For example: home + patientive suffix + from (adposition) = kelku + t + ta- > kelkuta

 :o :o :o

I think we can't use adpositions with another cases except nominative. What would it mean: kelku + t + ta:-\ :-\ :-\

It's not even grammatically possible to use cases with adpositions.. but I think I get the point

Oh, whoops. My bad. I've fixed my earlier post.

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 11:33:32 pm »
O.. ngaytxoa :-[
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Swoka Tsamsiyu

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2013, 06:23:01 am »
Kaltxì frapo,
Irayo for all the input. Slowly I'm getting there. Now I'm at a point when I see a word, I usually can spot the various fixes and what the root word was. I'm not always sure of what it means but I'm working on that. So this one is making progress^^

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2013, 06:38:47 am »
Kaltxì frapo,
Irayo for all the input. Slowly I'm getting there. Now I'm at a point when I see a word, I usually can spot the various fixes and what the root word was. I'm not always sure of what it means but I'm working on that. So this one is making progress^^

From the translations in the original post, it looks like you're doing just fine with tenses and such. :) From here, I'd advise focusing on these infixes:

äp, eyk, iv, ei, äng, ats

As you'll notice by looking around /ninavi-niaw board and chatting with various people, the compound infixes (like ilv, imv, or ìly, aly, etc.) aren't super common. Still good to know, but the ones above are pretty common and important to meaning.

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2013, 01:20:03 pm »
Quote
For example: home + patientive suffix + from (adposition) = kelku + t + ta- > kelkuta

 :o :o :o

I think we can't use adpositions with another cases except nominative. What would it mean: kelku + t + ta:-\ :-\ :-\

Yeah, I was thinking; "What would work to show sounds combining? Oh, I know, noun + patientative affix + ta-! That will work!"

Didn't stop to realize that you really wouldn't/couldn't have that happen. Doh!

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2013, 01:46:45 pm »
Quote
For example: home + patientive suffix + from (adposition) = kelku + t + ta- > kelkuta

 :o :o :o

I think we can't use adpositions with another cases except nominative. What would it mean: kelku + t + ta:-\ :-\ :-\

Yeah, I was thinking; "What would work to show sounds combining? Oh, I know, noun + patientative affix + ta-! That will work!"

Didn't stop to realize that you really wouldn't/couldn't have that happen. Doh!
Better example from Horen:

2.1.4.4. Double consonants do not occur within root words, but may occur at morpheme boundaries, for example in derivations, tsukkäteng < tsuk- + käteng, or with enclitics Mo’atta < Mo’at + ta
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


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Re: Practise.
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2013, 02:11:26 pm »
Quote
For example: home + patientive suffix + from (adposition) = kelku + t + ta- > kelkuta

 :o :o :o

I think we can't use adpositions with another cases except nominative. What would it mean: kelku + t + ta:-\ :-\ :-\

Yeah, I was thinking; "What would work to show sounds combining? Oh, I know, noun + patientative affix + ta-! That will work!"

Didn't stop to realize that you really wouldn't/couldn't have that happen. Doh!
Better example from Horen:

2.1.4.4. Double consonants do not occur within root words, but may occur at morpheme boundaries, for example in derivations, tsukkäteng < tsuk- + käteng, or with enclitics Mo’atta < Mo’at + ta

Right. That's the rule about double consonants. You'll never find them unless there's affixes involved. And double vowels you should never find. Except maybe as a result of using prefixes or suffixes. In order to avoid deleting part of the word, or part of the affix, there's a rule that if you have a suffix like -o, you have to use the "-" to separate them in writing, if the word ends in o: fya'o-o, and such.

What are some examples of deleting parts of the root word or part of the affix when using affixes? The only I can think of are vll + <ol> = vll, frrfen + <er> = frrfen, plltxe + <ol> = poltxe. Mostly poltxe.

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2013, 07:50:58 pm »
:-\ uhm … guys?

Don’t you think this is a bit way-over-beginner’s material? ;)

I fear that Swoka Tsamsiyu gets rather intimidated by all this linguistic lingo and exceptions upon exceptions from the ‘rules’. He just wanted to practice a few infixes ;)

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Re: Practise.
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2013, 08:06:52 pm »
:-\ uhm … guys?

Don’t you think this is a bit way-over-beginner’s material? ;)

I fear that Swoka Tsamsiyu gets rather intimidated by all this linguistic lingo and exceptions upon exceptions from the ‘rules’. He just wanted to practice a few infixes ;)


AW man I think you're right.. Heh. Leave it to me to always over-analyze things and make things super complicated when they don't need to be. Ngaytxoa :-[

OP is definitely on the right track though. :)

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