Author Topic: Discussion on fray+  (Read 1746 times)

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Discussion on fray+
« on: July 16, 2014, 03:24:53 pm »
Tsayhelkut ngal folrrfen, srak?
Have you visited these houses?


Um, fray+ is correct. Fìtsenge
It means "all of these" ;)


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This topic has been splitted out from the topic: Lenition of prefixes
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 09:00:04 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2014, 03:28:05 pm »
Tsayhelkut ngal folrrfen, srak?
Have you visited these houses?

This is a different question.

Um, fray+ is correct. Fìtsenge
It means "all of these" ;)

Why there is no fray in the dictionary? And why there are not any examples with that?

Edit:

Yes,  fray+ is now official.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2014, 03:31:43 pm »
Because they forgot it.... ::) *writing a post in the dictionary thread*

As for example:

Frayhelutral lor lu.
Every of the Houses are beautiful.
Jedes der Häuser ist schön.


Paul used this example for a translation but his exact phrase was "All of these houses are..."

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2014, 03:37:24 pm »
Actually I don't see "these" here. There is plural prefix ay+, but no fì- or tsa- :-\ It does not seem correct, maybe Pawl was mistaken? Also what happens when there are two or three houses? *Framehelku and *frapxehelku? :-\ I don't understand how these prefixes work...

And why Ftiafpi said that it's not official?
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2014, 03:38:52 pm »
All of these three houses? I see no problem with it.

Edit:
And why Ftiafpi said that it's not official?
Where?

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2014, 03:41:42 pm »
All of these houses. = fra + + ay + kelku = *frafayhelku, kefyak? Where is this fì- in the example?

And why Ftiafpi said that it's not official?
Where?

Sorry, I read "now" as "not" :-[
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2014, 03:50:46 pm »
Well, this is a consistently used "rule" of
Paul used this example for a translation but his exact phrase was "All of these houses are..."
With the difference, that there is "three" from pxe+ or "two" from me+.
As for that "pseudo-fì", you could ask Pawl about it. I think, fra + ay is special, otherwise it would be (literal) something like this: "*frafay+"...


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Maybe a moderator could be nice to split this topic because of derailment... :-[

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2014, 09:27:39 am »
I think we should use something like takip here: pehelkut a takip tsapum ngal folrrfen?
Pum has no plural, so *tsayfum seems to be not allowed.

Quote
Actually I don't see "these" here. There is plural prefix ay+, but no fì- or tsa- Undecided It does not seem correct, maybe Pawl was mistaken? Also what happens when there are two or three houses? *Framehelku and *frapxehelku? Undecided I don't understand how these prefixes work...

And why Ftiafpi said that it's not official?
IMO using fra- (every) with number gives no sense. Every two/three houses? Hmmm.
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2014, 09:57:47 am »
Pum has no plural, so *tsayfum seems to be not allowed.

Has it been confirmed?

IMO using fra- (every) with number gives no sense. Every two/three houses? Hmmm.

I think so, but it's official now... Maybe fra- means every, but fray+ - all? It could make sense, IMO.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2014, 10:54:48 am »
I think the basic problem here is, that we know if we use number with nouns, we don't add ay+ prefix to the noun in Na'vi.
The same usually also for quantifiers like "all", fray+ is more or less an exception, which means "all of these" (which would mean literally *frafay+ [fra+fì+ay]), but I thnk it force the translation for "all". The combination of fra+me/pxe could mean "every [two X] or [three X] - every "pair" / "tripple" thing. It would like a "dual fra" and "trial fra".

All houses
Alle Häuser
Toti case
Frayhelku


But "every" or even fra- doesn't cause the plural use on nouns, so they aren't changed:
Every house
Jedes Haus
Fiecare casă
Frakelku


Here you have the difference between fra- "every" and fray- "all".

frapo - everybody
vs
frayfo - all bodies

I think, this is why fray has been confirmed.

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2014, 11:02:11 am »
The combination of fra+me/pxe could mean "every [two X] or [three X] - every "pair" / "tripple" thing. It would like a "dual fra" and "trial fra".

In this case fray+ should mean «every [four or more X]», «every group of multiple X» :-\
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Wllìm

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2014, 11:03:11 am »
But I don't see the difference in meaning between every and all. There is a grammatical difference in English (and Dutch, and also German and Romanian (?) apparently :) ) but the meaning is the same, right?

So if I say

Oel tse'a frakelkuti.
I see every house.

or

Oel tse'a frayhelkuti.
I see all houses.

the meaning would be identical, right? ???
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2014, 11:33:37 am »
The combination of fra+me/pxe could mean "every [two X] or [three X] - every "pair" / "tripple" thing. It would like a "dual fra" and "trial fra".

In this case fray+ should mean «every [four or more X]», «every group of multiple X» :-\
This could mean "every" [of more than three X]...
A weird thing about Na'vi language. I can't answer it, because that fra+me/pxe should go to Pawl.

But I don't see the difference in meaning between every and all. There is a grammatical difference in English (and Dutch, and also German and Romanian (?) apparently :) ) but the meaning is the same, right?

So if I say

Oel tse'a frakelkuti.
I see every house.

or

Oel tse'a frayhelkuti.
I see all houses.

the meaning would be identical, right? ???
Yeah, the meaning is the same, but if they are the same, why do we have this possibility to choose between "all" or "every"? :) There are some situation, one would use "every" or "all".

Frakelkut oel tse'a.

or

Frayhelkut oel tse'a.

...so why not in Na'vi?

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2014, 12:53:51 am »
I think the choice of these terms boils down to whether you are dealing with a countable noun or a collective noun.

First of all, I think Tìtstewan is right about using fra- for counting off things. For instance, if there was a solar eclipse every fifth day due to the orbital mechanics of being one of many moons of a gas giant, you might say something like:

Vawm slu tsawke a framrrve trr. - The sun becomes dark every fifth day.

Or if you just want to indicate every member of a like group of countable nouns, you could use fra- in the way we are most familiar with it:

Txewil stoleftxaw fratsko. - Txewi examined every bow.

But if the noun is non-countable, or a collective noun, you would use fray+:

Poan yasyom fraysyuve - He will eat all the food.

Although collective nouns cannot be used plurally (which would often require the ay+ prefix), they can be used in a collective manner to indicate 'all' of that noun.

There may be some languages that don't use collective nouns quite this way.

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2014, 01:03:15 am »
Interesting. I would have thought that fray = fra-ay+ would be only usable on countables where ay+ could be used.

I think fray+ only makes sense at the conceptual level. It seems to break down at the etymological level of its constituents. This isn't the only word like this.

fray+ as meaning "all of the Xs" and in a certain context "all of these/those Xs" is probably the only logical way to understand it I can think of.

Hmm..

Fratute hahaw. Each/every person sleeps.
Fraysute hahaw. All of the people sleep.

Such a small distinction in cases like this. Almost like there's a good bit of overlap between fra- and fray+

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2014, 02:00:02 am »
I would agree that there is a lot of overlap, and I wouldn't be surprised if they can be used interchangeably, speaker's preference. But I will reserve fray+ from now on where the collection of items cannot be enumerated. Thus, I think fra- will get used a lot more.

There also might be odd cases where I might want to force lenition. There, fray+ would be more approtriate than fra-.

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2014, 06:36:14 am »
I agree with Tirea. fray+ could be used with countable nouns only because we could not use ay+ with non-countable nouns.
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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2014, 01:22:00 pm »
Pum has no plural, so *tsayfum seems to be not allowed.

Has it been confirmed?
I'm quite sure I read it in Horen, but there's no such note there. So I had to saw it somewhere else, but I can't remember where.... maybe Plumps will know.
Quote
Vawm slu tsawke a framrrve trr. - The sun becomes dark every fifth day.
Interesting construction, but there are at least two problems.
"Every fifth day" works like adverb - it specifies time, so no a, but more serious issue is to attach fra- to the number. Is it allowed? Fra- is for nouns only, so I'd would use it differently.

Tsawke slu vawm fratrr amuve - Sun becomes dark every fifth day.

Opinions?

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Discussion on fray+
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2014, 01:27:15 pm »
I'm agree with BE, "framrrve" is nosense, as fra- goes before nouns.


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I changed the title of this thread. :)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 08:56:42 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Discussion on fray+
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2014, 09:05:33 pm »
Ma ayOlo'eyktan, aynga zene pxìmivun'i fìkìngit...
Irayo nìtxan!

I changed the title of this thread. :)

I tried my best to split the original 3-topic thread into the respective 3 threads. The original had been answered and the discussions about fray+ has been moved here (the best I could) and the discussion about *ayfum has been split then moved to another board. Sorry about the mess, but it was for the best. (I really wish the mod tools were less messy for these kinds of operations)

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