Author Topic: Split topic: ro -vs- mì  (Read 2063 times)

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Offline baritone

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Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« on: April 10, 2014, 01:55:25 pm »
Mì letsama Ro ekxan a hawnu tok lok eyktantseng Tonetskä atxkxeyä, fko pamrel soli san "Это наша земля" sìk.
At the barricade which is near the Adminitration (place) of the land of Donetsk, one wrote, "Это наша земля".
Thank you!
But what's the difference between adpositions 'mi+' and 'ro+'?

Offline Tìtstewan

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Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2014, 02:32:39 pm »
It depends how one say it. I thought, ro+ would fit there better than mì+, but I see that mì+ would work there too.
-> ro ekxan / ekxanro - at the barricade vs. mì ekxan / ekxanmì - on the barricade
(It the same thing like in English on vs at or German auf vs bei/an)
But, somehow, mì+ implies me, that something "lies" on a sureface, on the top of a barricade. The word ro+ would "allow" that something could be sticky on a site of a barricade.

mì+
X
|||    vs    |||Xro+

This is just my thoughs about it, but it would be nice, what other smuk would say. :)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 02:35:52 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2014, 02:49:36 pm »
I think ro+ implies some action which relates to the place. For example ro numtseng (at school) means that person is studying, but mì numtseng (in school) means being in physical place (school building) only. It's how I understand the difference.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tanri

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Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2014, 02:52:01 pm »
At the barricade which is near the Adminitration (place) of the land of Donetsk, one wrote, "Это наша земля".
1) ekxan a lok2) *eyktantseng atxkxeyä3) Tonetskä, fko pamrel soli san Fìatxkxe lu awngeyä sìk.

1) and ro are very close to each other, but there is a difference.
is used in general sence, in the sentences like "mì mo a hahaw" - "in the bedroom".
Ro takes place when speaking about geographical locations, or locations that have its own name, like "ro ’Rrta" - "on the Earth".

2) Tok shouldn't be there, because there already is an (unspoken) verb lu. Full sentence is "mì ekxan a lu lok eyktantseng..." - "on the barricade which is close to the administrative center...".

3) Also I have reversed the order of atxkxeyä and Tonetskä, to emphasize the fact that it is the place of the land (of the Donetsk), not place of the Donetsk (of the land).
This can be said "eyktantseng atxkxeyä alu Tonetsìk", or even "eyktantseng atxkxetsyìpä alu Tonetsìk" - "administrative center of the Doneck district"
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2014, 06:08:57 pm »
I think ro+ implies some action which relates to the place. For example ro numtseng (at school) means that person is studying, but mì numtseng (in school) means being in physical place (school building) only. It's how I understand the difference.
This is very interesting! Some members are using, for example, ro [website], but some others are using .
In the Horen is written this:
Quote from: Horen lì'fyayä leNa'vi
6.5.31. Ro (+). At (locative only)


2) Tok shouldn't be there, because there already is an (unspoken) verb lu. Full sentence is "mì ekxan a lu lok eyktantseng..." - "on the barricade which is close to the administrative center...".
But, the barricades "occupy" a place/space near the administration, therefore I used tok. ...which "occupy a space" near to the administration center...

3) Also I have reversed the order of atxkxeyä and Tonetskä, to emphasize the fact that it is the place of the land (of the Donetsk), not place of the Donetsk (of the land).
This can be said "eyktantseng atxkxeyä alu Tonetsìk", or even "eyktantseng atxkxetsyìpä alu Tonetsìk" - "administrative center of the Doneck district"
I see, I forgot to write ì after k...Tonetskì...
As for the translations of the "Donetsk regional administration", I thought about it, and I think, it would be ok if one translate it just as *eyktantseng Tonetskìä/Tonetsìkä without to mentioning "land".

EDIT:
...kinda off-topic :o :-[ :-[ :-[ :-X
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 06:17:19 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Tanri

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Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2014, 02:49:45 pm »
...kinda off-topic :o :-[ :-[ :-[ :-X
Fwa plltxe fìfya to fwa fnu ìlä horen, lu sìltsan ;D

I think ro+ implies some action which relates to the place. For example ro numtseng (at school) means that person is studying, but mì numtseng (in school) means being in physical place (school building) only. It's how I understand the difference.
Eltur tìtxen si! Fìtìoeyktìngit oel tse’a nì’awve, a fì’u ke lu kea lun fte stivo tsari pivllngay, nìlun.
Tìvawmìri txopu rä’ä si. Nrr!

Offline Tìtstewan

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Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2014, 02:57:11 pm »
...kinda off-topic :o :-[ :-[ :-[ :-X
Fwa plltxe fìfya to fwa fnu ìlä horen, lu sìltsan ;D
Oeri lu na vrrtep... :-[

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Offline baritone

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Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2014, 11:53:44 pm »
I tried to understand the difference between prepositions and read the "horen...", but so far there is no complete understanding. It is clear that we must proceed from the values ​​of the English prepositions.
Мost of all I liked the Tìtstewan version.
I'll try reading examples from naviteri.

Offline Tìtstewan

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Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2014, 05:57:52 am »
I found these three examples on Na'viteri:
Quote
Ro sngä’itseng tsalì’uä alu ’eylan lu tìftang.
‘At the beginning of the word ’eylan there’s a glottal stop.’

New oe rivun asim tìfnunga’a tsengit a tsaro tsun syivor tsivurokx fte späpiveng.
‘I want to find a quiet place nearby where I can chill out and rest to get my head back on straight.’

Haya yakro ftivang. Salew rä’ä.
‘Stop at the next fork. Do not proceed further.’


EDIT:
I'm going to write a PM to a mod to split out this discussion also make it as own thread.
EDIT 2:
Tsakem soli...
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 06:44:35 am by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Blue Elf

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Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2014, 01:47:59 pm »
Ro takes place when speaking about geographical locations, or locations that have its own name, like "ro ’Rrta" - "on the Earth".

No, we have official example with mì 'Rrta.
ro is locative "at", so it is used when we speak about specific location. "Ro 'Rrta" IMHO doesn't speak about specific place on the Earth, so here realy should work better.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2014, 03:01:17 am »
*being on topic*

From an other thread:

Apxa tsa-/fì-'u aean ro/mì sa'u
That/this big blue thing at/in the sky

This example is one, where I could not decide exactly what would be the best. I feel ro+ fit here better, because it is like a locative case in some languages.
In German this sentence would have following meanings:
Apxa fì'u aean ro/mì sa'u
English: This big blue thing at/in the sky.
Dieses große blaue Ding am Himmel - am (abr. of "an dem") = ro+
vs.
Dieses große blaue Ding im Himmel. - im (abr. of "in dem") = mì+

The most people, would tend to use the first version with "am", and that's why I would use ro+. But it's difficult, because the second version with "im" is not wrong...

In other languages (especially the slavic languages like czech, russian etc.) would use a  locative case, if I'm not mistaken.


*being off topic*

---
Kop, this thread should be unsticky. :)

Ma ayolo'eyktan, rutxe kem si 'uo. :)

EDIT:
*writting next PM*
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 01:32:26 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2014, 03:29:18 pm »
This is example where context matters. A case could be made for either preposition. in English usage, ro+ would be more correct if the person were writing something, and the emphasis was the location. mì+ would be more appropriate if the emphasis was on a note being written which is on or attached to the barricade. There is not a single correct answer here without context.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Offline baritone

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Re: Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2014, 03:52:52 am »
This is example where context matters. A case could be made for either preposition. in English usage, ro+ would be more correct if the person were writing something, and the emphasis was the location. mì+ would be more appropriate if the emphasis was on a note being written which is on or attached to the barricade. There is not a single correct answer here without context.
So, if only location is important for me, and the event is not, then I should use the preposition "ro+", but if the event only important, and position indication is only used to denote the event, then the preposition should be "mì+"?

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2014, 12:42:45 pm »
AFAIK, these were a mirror of the English words "at" and "in/on".

"at" (ro+) usually refers to sharing a relative location with a place, but not necessarily being inside the place or on it.

"on" refers usually to occupying a position which is sitting on the surface of something.

"in" refers usually to being inside something. (which is weird, I know, because we also have the word for "inside".)

I'm at(ro+} the river. (This would imply that you are standing RIGHT there almost touching the river, but not touching it and are most likely not getting wet)

I'm in(mì) the river. (This would imply that you are standing there getting wet by the water because you're standing where the water flows.)

I'm on the rock. (This would imply that you are standing there with your feet touching the top surface or some other surface which is part of the rock.)

You would have to use judgement and sense when thinking about whether mì means "in" or "on".

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Re: Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2014, 12:43:27 pm »
*being on topic*

From an other thread:

Apxa tsa-/fì-'u aean ro/mì sa'u
That/this big blue thing at/in the sky
AFAIK in English we say "X in the sky" (not "at the sky"), so for me is clear selection....
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2014, 02:25:34 pm »
I think we are on some different language variaty...

Other example:
English: I see a bird in the sky -
German: Ich sehe ein Vogel am Himmel - ro
Czech: ??
Russian: ??
Romanian: Eu văd o pasăre pe cer. - lit: I see a bird on the sky so

How does the Na'vi say that? :-\

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2014, 02:28:35 pm »
It is likely that this was another English-ism that found its way into the Na'vi language. There are some others, too. The member formerly known as Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng has quite a list of these, I think.

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Re: Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2014, 02:44:06 pm »
Russian: ??

There is not a direct translation of at in Russian. In some cases we translate it as в (general in), but also it could be translated as за (за столом - at the table) or maybe with other prepositions. Sometimes we even can omit this preposition: at home - дома.
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Re: Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2014, 03:57:18 pm »
AFAIK, these were a mirror of the English words "at" and "in/on".
"at" (ro+) usually refers to sharing a relative location with a place, but not necessarily being inside the place or on it.
"on" refers usually to occupying a position which is sitting on the surface of something.
"in" refers usually to being inside something. (which is weird, I know, because we also have the word for "inside".)
I'm at(ro+} the river. (This would imply that you are standing RIGHT there almost touching the river, but not touching it and are most likely not getting wet)
I'm in(mì) the river. (This would imply that you are standing there getting wet by the water because you're standing where the water flows.)
I'm on the rock. (This would imply that you are standing there with your feet touching the top surface or some other surface which is part of the rock.)
You would have to use judgement and sense when thinking about whether mì means "in" or "on".
Fìtìoeyktìngìri ngaru irayo, ma Tirea Aean.
Thank you, Tirea, for this explanation of ro+. This is practically the same as I think, only with much wider scope, and it makes sense - especially compared with english counterparts.
I really don't know since what time and from what opportunity I have that idea of geographical exclusivity of ro+, however now I see that I was unnecessarily strict on it.
So, if I got it correctly, it's best to choose between ro and according the literal english translation "at", right?
Tìvawmìri txopu rä’ä si. Nrr!

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Re: Split topic: ro -vs- mì
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2014, 05:37:32 pm »
So, if I got it correctly, it's best to choose between ro and according the literal english translation "at", right?
Yes.
But I'm somehow afraid, that this could be english-ism.

The member formerly known as Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng has quite a list of these, I think.
I would see that list. :)


EDIT:
Sometimes we even can omit this preposition: at home - дома.
Wiki tells me, that this is an old locative case. This is also a bit idiomatic, like in German "zu Hause" (wich is also a very old locative case)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 05:46:02 pm by Tìtstewan »

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