The saying "<insert animal here> Makto"....

[Alìm Tsamsiyu]

So, I was wondering about this phrase with respect to the rules of the -fixes-

Technically, "Toruk Makto" should mean "Ride Toruk" or "Toruk ride" (images of Na'vi ayeveng-a ke-tsawl [little Na'vi children] riding slow moving Toruks on a ride at a fair, lol).

So, with that in mind, shouldn't it really be "Toruk Tìmaktoyu"?  Since that would be Ride => Nounified => with Nominative affix. Tì-makto-yu.

Any thoughts on this?

[wm.annis]

So, with that in mind, shouldn't it really be "Toruk Tìmaktoyu"?  Since that would be Ride => Nounified => with Nominative affix. Tì-makto-yu.

Based on other examples, taronyu, täftxuyu, just adding -yu is sufficient to change the class of the word from verb to noun, in this case an agent noun (i.e., English -er, hunt-er, weav-er, etc).

The tì- prefix creates specific kinds of nouns, action and abstract nouns (tìngay truth, tìrey life).  So you don't need it for words derived with -yu.

[Alìm Tsamsiyu]

Ah, tslolam, irayo.

Still, though, shouldn't the phrase be "Toruk Maktoyu"?

[wm.annis]

Still, though, shouldn't the phrase be "Toruk Maktoyu"?

If it were a phrase, probably, but it's a name.  We don't know what the rules are for forming compound names like this.

Perhaps I should adopt the Na'vi name Ayoengìl Ke Omum.   

[Alìm Tsamsiyu]

Ha ha, srane, ngal tsa'upxareti nìtxan plltxe!
Ha ha, srane, nga-l tsa'u+upxare-ti nì-txan plltxe!
Ha ha, yes, 2-ERG that+message-ACC ADV-much speak!
Ha ha, yes, you say that very much!

[Säfpìltu]

I've just now been touching this subject in other threads, such as the    
Palulukan Makto thread, but I haven't been able to find a satisfying answer. Toruk Makto might be a title, but would Palulukan Makto be the same? Shouldn't it really be <yivem ioang fìtseng> Maktoyu?

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

I've just now been touching this subject in other threads, such as the    
Palulukan Makto thread, but I haven't been able to find a satisfying answer. Toruk Makto might be a title, but would Palulukan Makto be the same? Shouldn't it really be <yivem ioang fìtseng> Maktoyu?

I think these two Na`vi sayings will answer your question. (Note what is and isn't capitalized)

Toruk Makto lu toruk maktoyu
Palulukan Makto lu palulukan maktoyu

or perhaps this works:

San Toruk Makto sik lu toruk maktoyu
San Palulukan Makto sik lu palulukan maktoyu

Even children know about Toruk Makto. But (according to the ASG, take it or leave it), Thanators are generally given very wide berth, and the Na`vi do not 'celebrate' this animal like they do viperwolves and most other animals. So if Neytiri is the first person to have ever ridden a thanator, that would mean that Palulukan Makto would be a heretofore-unusued-title.

[Säfpìltu]

I see how you're stating that it is so, but can we be sure it really is so? And through this logic, one could derive similar titles out of any <noun> <verb>yu, merely by saying <Noun> <Verb>. Doesn't look right to me. Or am I failing miserably here somehow?

Note: Although as far as I can see, my deduction is correct, but I still would not believe it's the case. I simply would believe that Toruk Makto is a unique way of creating such a title, and that Palulukan Makto zene lu palulukan moktoyu.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

I see how you're stating that it is so, but can we be sure it really is so? And through this logic, one could derive similar titles out of any <noun> <verb>yu, merely by saying <Noun> <Verb>. Doesn't look right to me. Or am I failing miserably here somehow?

Note: Although as far as I can see, my deduction is correct, but I still would not believe it's the case. I simply would believe that Toruk Makto is a unique way of creating such a title, and that Palulukan Makto zene lu palulukan moktoyu.

You are not failing at all. toruk and Toruk Makto (and for that matter palulukan ) Are all Cameronian terms. At the time James Cameron created Toruk Makto, the rules for Na`vi were not known about. So the story goes, Toruk Makto was legalized as an exception to the normal -yu convention. It seems that this would work with palulukan as well, when looked at from a cultural perspective. But like Toruk Makto, Palulukan Makto would be a title, not a description. Beyond that, maybe the other common use of this construction MIGHT be Ikran Makto, and that title is used on this board.

[Säfpìltu]

So it's all just speculation, then. I think I'll stick with believing that Toruk Makto is in fact a unique way of making a title, and stand by my statement that Palulukan Makto (lapo aymaktoyusi) zene lu palulukan maktoyu. (Should that be Palulukan Maktol (lapo si aymaktoyul) zene lu palulukan maktoyut?)

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

So it's all just speculation, then. I think I'll stick with believing that Toruk Makto is in fact a unique way of making a title, and stand by my statement that Palulukan Makto (lapo aymaktoyusi) zene lu palulukan maktoyu. (Should that be Palulukan Maktol (lapo si aymaktoyul) zene lu palulukan maktoyut?)

OK, I think we both agree that Toruk Makto and Palulukan Makto (and I'll throw in Ikran Makto, as Ikran is also Cameronian) are all titles.

With that established, lets take a llok at your rather interesting sentences.

Palulukan Makto (lapo aymaktoyusi) zene lu palulukan maktoyu

I think the meaning here is "Thanator Rider' (and other riders (of thanators)) must be thanator riders".

First of all, It appears you are trying to use si as an adpostion here, as you have it tacked onto the end of maktoyu. What you really want, I think, is a simple 'and'. The 'adposition' you used here is actually an auxillary verb, si. This goes after (but not attached to) a noun, and makes it into an intransitive verb. Since aymaktoyu is already a verb, this cannot be what your intended usage is. so, if we use the correct verb for 'and' here, sì, we can arrange the first half of your sentence as follows:

Palulukan Makto sì lapo anafì`u aymaktoyu...

The left hand part now makes sense,. I added nafì`u, 'such' to make the sentence make more sense. As an adjective, it is 'pinned' onto lapo by the a added at the beginning of nafì`u. Since Palulukan Makto should all be one word, as is Toruk Makto, no additional grammatical glue is needed there. Although, you could still use San Palulukan Makto sik for effect if you wanted.

Now, the second half of your sentence.

zene 'must' is a special kind of verb, called a 'modal verb'. This means that this verb modifies or controls another verb, in this case the simple verb lu, 'be'. When you use a modal verb, the 'controlled verb' must take the subjunctive <iv> infix. You also need the plural prefix on the second maktoyu, as you are referring to more than one rider. So, putting the entire sentence together, you have:

Palulukan Makto sì lapo anafì`u aymaktoyu zene livu palulukan aymaktoyu

In your second sentence, you attempt to use noun cases:

Palulukan Maktol (lapo si aymaktoyul) zene lu palulukan maktoyut

All of what was discussed about your first sentence also applies to your second sentence. In addition, both zene and lu are intransitive verbs. Thus, there is no need to mark agentive or patientive noun cases. Your si needs to go after makto(l), and should be a sì. With the addition of nafì`u, you first and second sentences become more or less identical.

Hope this helps!

[Ikran Ahiyìk]

I saw somewhere the full form should be « ioang-(y)ä maktoyu »...

[Säfpìltu]

Ioangä maktoyu would mean animal's rider, rather than simply animal rider, right?

[Ikran Ahiyìk]

The "ioang" means "<insert animal here>" ... It's not in bold but italic

[Säfpìltu]

<yivem ioang fìtseng> means <insert animal here> ioang means animal or beast.

Anyway, <noun> <verb>yu makes "noun verber (verb-doer)" while <noun>(y)ä <verb>yu makes "noun's verber".

[Ikran Ahiyìk]

I haven't seen Na'vi have two nouns stick together, there must be some connections between them.

I thought it's "____ maktoyu" before also, but the explaination somewhere contains -yä makes much more sense to me.

Torukä Maktoyu
Rider of "Last Shadow"

[Säfpìltu]

You say Torukä Maktoyu Rider of "Last Shadow", but I'd rather say it'd more correctly be "Toruk's rider" or "Last Shadow's rider".

Toruk Makto makes <noun> <verb>, while toruk maktoyu and torukä maktoyu both make two nouns either way you see it, and I can see how you think this last phrase suits better, but I do believe you can "stack nouns" in the same way you would in English. Or?

[Ikran Ahiyìk]

Because there's no <noun> <verb>(+ affixes), only <noun>(+ affixes) <verb>(+ affixes)...



I don't know much about sticking nouns. Na'vi seems use affixes very frequently, to state all the relations between words clearly, if not there will be confusion since it's "free word order".

... and don't forget Toruk Makto with no affixes is created by JC, like Utraya Mokri corrected to Utral Aymokriyä by Frommer.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that Ikran Ayhik is correct. To describe a rider of some animal, it would be ioangä maktoyu

Thus, the sentence we have been working over becomes:

Palulukan Makto sì lapo anafì`u aymaktoyu zene livu falulukanä aymaktoyu

Note that I changed palulukanä to the plural case as well, as it makes more sense as 'riders of thanators'.

[Ikran Ahiyìk]

Yeah, just like what's our KS

Karyuä Srungsiyu




For animal, since JC is the original creator and that title "___ Makto" with no affixes had appeared so many times,
I think both way are acceptable: in correct grammar or normal descriptions, use the one with affixes; to use as a noun for a TITLE, use JC's.