Using -I and -ri

[MasterEro]

I think I may need some assistance in knowing when to use each.

Please, correct me if I am wrong. -I is always going to be paired with -ti because it is a (ERG-ACC) relationship, and -ri is always paired with -yä because it is the Genetive? Little help!

Irayo,
Eric

[Ikran]

I think I may need some assistance in knowing when to use each.

Please, correct me if I am wrong. -I is always going to be paired with -ti because it is a (ERG-ACC) relationship

Yes, but remember you can use a transitive verb without an object, i.e.: oel kame, I see (something)

, and -ri is always paired with -yä because it is the Genetive? Little help!

No. -yä and -ri has nothing to do with each other. -yä is used to denote possession or other types of relation between nouns (my father), whereas -ri is used as a topic marker. Anyway, the correct usage of -ri is a bit fuzzy to me.

[MasterEro]

Ya. using -ri is also unclear for me. If anyone is reading this that could clear it up, that would be great.

Irayo.

[Taw sì Syal]

I'm also a little unclear on this, but from what I gather you use -ri to focus on a specific noun in a sentence that contains other nouns or is complex. Attaching -ri to a noun makes that noun the main subject of its sentence, or what you want the listener to focus on. (the classic example: "my nose is full of his alien smell") The speaker here wants the listener to notice that his nose is full, therefore he is turning himself into the main focus of the sentence and would attach -ri after my. Hope this helps, if I'm wrong feel free to correct...   

[Doolio]

basically, it helps you determine main word, phrase, or sentence in a complex sentence.

in the given example, we know we should focus on the fact that his nose is full. the sentence is complex, but that is it's core meaning. it answers the question 'what's with you/your nose?'.

if we would add -ri to, say, word 'smell', that would become the focus word, thus, changing context of a sentence. now, the sentence woud answer the question 'your nose is full of what?'. the emphasis would be on 'smell'.

if we would add -ri to the word 'alien', the sentence would answer the question 'your nose is full of what smell?'.

in english you put that kind of emphasis through pronunciation, through vocal emphasis on the word that is the topic of a sentence.


i am not 100% sure about this, but i think this is correct.

[Skxawng]

snip

for the most part thats correct. an important note, however, is that not all sentences need the -ri suffix

for example in the following paragraph, only the emboldened words would receive the -ri suffix

I went flying yesterday with my ikran. I was happy among the mountains, as was my ikran.  We hunted but were unable to make a kill. Sister went hunting as well. She was sucessful and she ate well that night. I didn't however.

[Doolio]

yes, i forgot to mention that the '-ri' is not needed when the context itself is taking care of the sentence meaning and focus. irayo:)

as for the paragraph, maybe the whole paragraph could go without any topic marker? it seems natural to me that the boldened words are the 'main carriers' of a sentence even without the topic marker, by natural context alone. on the other hand, in a first sentence, if i wanted to emphasise not only that i was flying, but i was flyin with non-other than my trusted ikran, i would have ikran receive the '-ri' suffix.

or, you can correct me, of course

[Hymake]

-ri simply marks the topic, like 'wa' in japanese

Example: oeri ontu teya längu
It's something like "I'm going to talk about me: nose is full"

It simply marks the topic of the sentence, so it isn't needed in all the sentences

PS Sorry if i just say the same thing again

[Na'viyä Tsamsiyu]

So if your using -ri with Oe, would it be the same as saying "my" because if your the topic.....

Also, the -yä showing possession, can you say Oeyä for "my" as well, or is there a special word for that? Because ive seen it before. 

[Na'viyä Tsamsiyu]

Heres a question:

The pocket guide says that the noun takes the -ri suffix when made topical RATHER than the case suffix one would expect from its grammatical role.

Someone give an example of a sentence where you WOULD use a case suffix, but -ri still comes into play correctly. Does this mean that even if it had its usual case suffix, it would still be right?



EDIT: Yes i accidently pressed reply instead of modding my prev post.

[omängum fra'uti]

Heh I almost accidentally did the opposite and hit edit on your post instead of reply.


My brother is a hunter
Oe-yä tsmukan taron-yu lu

About me, brother is a hunter
Oe-ri tsmukan taron-yu lu

The meaning comes out to be the same.


Eywa give me protection from evil
Oe-ru Eywa-l tìng tì-hawnu-ti ta sì-kawng

About me, Eywa give protection from evil
Oe-ri Eywa-l tìng tì-hawnu-ti ta sì-kawng

Again, the meaning is the same.

In general, the topic can take the place of the dative or genitive.  I'm not sure if it would work so well for ergative and accusitive, to be honest, but in some cases I imagine it could.

[Na'viyä Tsamsiyu]

Heh I almost accidentally did the opposite and hit edit on your post instead of reply

LOL

and, that clarifies a lot for what we know, and it was all in my assumptions (except for the example)

Irayo apxay!!! Eywa Ngahu,

-Raptor

[Uniltse'ayu]

Heh I almost accidentally did the opposite and hit edit on your post instead of reply.


My brother is a hunter
Oe-yä tsmukan taron-yu lu

About me, brother is a hunter
Oe-ri tsmukan taron-yu lu

The meaning comes out to be the same.


Eywa give me protection from evil
Oe-ru Eywa-l tìng tì-hawnu-ti ta sì-kawng

About me, Eywa give protection from evil
Oe-ri Eywa-l tìng tì-hawnu-ti ta sì-kawng

Again, the meaning is the same.

In general, the topic can take the place of the dative or genitive.  I'm not sure if it would work so well for ergative and accusitive, to be honest, but in some cases I imagine it could.

In your translations with -ri in them you say "about me," i dont really understand that. ><

[Doolio]

"me" (oe) is the topic word, there fore, the sentence is focused on it. so, "about me" is something like "i am talking about me now".

lets try these simple sentences:

ikran-il tspang nantang-it  -   ikran kills nantang.

ikran-ir tspang nantang-it  -  ikran is the focus here, you are answering a question 'what/who kills nantang?' - 'ikran'

ikran-il tspang nantang-ir  -  here, nantang is the focus, the question would be 'what/who is killed by ikran?' - 'nantang'


that is how i see it. i could be wrong, though.

[Txur’Itan]

What about a verb as a topic when describing an action vaguely?

si-ri(TOP)
about.do

[omängum fra'uti]

No evidence that's possible in that sence.  However, tì<verb> turns it into an abstract noun, though tì-si-ri would not seem very sensical to me.

Just be careful using it, adding tì does not make it the -ing version of it.  Tì-rol for example doesn't mean "singing" (rol = sing), it means song.