Author Topic: Ideas for a standardised Na'vi (certification?)  (Read 2454 times)

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Ideas for a standardised Na'vi (certification?)
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2012, 08:49:20 pm »
I'm glad to see the discussion has been 'sparked'!

Many of you here, even Niri Te, already know most of these things, but just doesn't realize they do. There are a lot of advanced things that many users here use every day, that aren't on the list I created. How many of you, for example, use the <ats> infix? How many here know we have an <ats> infix?  ::)  But virtually all of you know what <ay> is and does.

Almost everything on that list can be taught using non-technical terms. I used the technical terms because most people here, up to this point, have had to learn Na'vi that way. But K. Pawl's recent lesson in Seattle taught many of these concepts, and very few linguistic terms were used (and its all online in his latest blog post, which is worth a good, hard look).

Unless we want to work togehter to create a graded reading comprehension learning method, as Niri Te suggests, the texts that are already there (plus much of the content of nìNa'vi Nì'aw) requires a proficiency in Na'vi about equal to that list to read effectively.

A good argument could be made that a level is needed somewhere between what was originally suggested and what I have suggested.

Oh, prenouns are basically prefixes that modify nouns. Examples are fay-, fne-, fra-, etc. Deixis has to do with the placement of an object of conversation near you or away from you, i.e. this and that. In Na'vi, you use fì- for this (proximal deixis) and tsa- for that (distal deixis).

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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Ideas for a standardised Na'vi (certification?)
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2012, 09:15:01 pm »
I debated whether it was appropriate as a numeyu to jump into this, however...  Also, maybe this post would be better served in the PN II development thread.


'awve:  I do think there is incentive to be able to demonstrate/prove what you've learned.  Setting criteria and goals are good things for people to aspire to, realizing that not everyone will want to.  And no one should be looked down upon either way, especially if they work but cannot achieve decided criteria.  Niri Te earned a point from me for posting, "We need to be very careful, and not create "classes" in our fledgeling society."  I think that's spot on and something that admittedly I've observed in some comments through various threads.  Not everyone will learn at the same rate (nor have they endless time to dedicate to something that interests them or they relate to).  Thus I think that whatever the experienced haryu and experienced community decide, they need to not only look at the criteria and content, but also how they learned the material.


Muve:  Not everyone learns the same way.  Just because YOU have the gift of memorization, or of grammer, doesn't mean the next person does.  Further, I think Tirea is right as to not be technical.  Or perhaps set the teaching style to something in between.  I don't recall ever in 101 Spanish or German having all the language terms thrown at me.  Of the ones that were, they were introduced with explanation about what the terms meant.  A well written 101 guide in language terms used in NiaN, etc. would be most helpful.  But english isn't everyone's native language either.  As Tirea said, keeping it natural makes sense.

But, again, I also want to state that not everyone learns the same way.  Pending your training as an educator, you will learn that there are at least 3 (if not more) ways people learn.  One is by independently reading/self-learning, another is by verbal/listening, the third is by applied/hands on.  I would put for consideration a couple of things.  That the criteria and how Na'vi is presented incorporates multiple learning methods.  Visuals, speaking/recitation, written homework, reading a passage then writing comments about it...  You will offer a much more broad based method of instruction to new (and existing) aynumeyu.  I would also suggest this.  Teaching is not just about knowing the material.  It's about knowing how to teach and communicate (which is both speaking AND listening).  I think that for those who become recognized to become karyu, that there should be some sort of very basic karyu training session.  Maybe it's just a couple of documents to read about how to teach.  Maybe it's working with another karyu to go over generalized points about an established curriculum guideline?  Something...  

However there's admittedly a great risk of making this over complicated.  I, personally, would never want to intimidate anyone who wanted to be helpful and learn to be able be comfortable teaching Intro to Na'vi.  For every 10 numeyu, you may get 1 who succeeds and has the patience to be a karyu.  If the criteria bar is set so high, then you won't have anyone actively teaching either.  Goals need to be reachable and achievable, not just measureable.

Plus, not every karyu/numeyu pairing is effective let alone successful.  Think about the teachers/professors you've had.  Some you admired, some you despised, some you were just lost in class because of.  The important part is to think about WHY.  And, as Tirea suggested, having it easy and fun.  Some of learning Na'vi is a challenge.  (All the forms of tsa'u, fì'u, and tsnì!")  I think the critical part is to make the aynumeyu feel welcome and encouraged to learn.


Pxeyve:  Perhaps here is the hardest part.  Having available karyu and sessions regionally...  This is a big challenge now.  What's going to happen when Avatar 2 comes out and LN sees a huge influx?  Education is changing to reflect "on demand" training.  Often by video'd lectures, topics, etc...  I too am a strong believer in immersion and group interaction.  But that will not work for everyone.  Plus not everyone has a headset, and (for the under US legal age) not everyone will have understanding parents who will allow online sessions with "strangers".  Now I realize the topic is language qualification/certification for both numeyu and haryu.  However one of the possibilities is digital content.  As Karyu Pawl allowed his session to be recorded, perhaps the same should be done for various topics?  Then learners can suppliment their session learning with video/audio training.  It's a bit of work.  But perhaps some karyu may feel more comfortable creating such digital content training and have great graphic and post-production editing skills?  Obviously this is well above and beyond the ideas for standardised Na'vi.  But I think these are worthwhile considerations as learning and teaching is developed.  It's certainly the way commercial classroom education is headed now (and has been for a number of years) as anyone in IT will attest.  How often to you go to YouTube to learn how to fix something!


Now..., as to the criteria.  I like the list that `Eylan Ayfalulukanä posted for consideration.  It's a well rounded list.  I would throw in my two pfennig that maybe both a 1 day or 3 day recognition, then this next level would be offered.  Allow the new/interested person something tangible where they work hard for a weekend, or a month, and earn some sort of 101 level.  And a badge in their profile.  People like shiny things...  Maybe a tiny graphic Na'vi related.  Now they've had the taste of it.  What's the next level?  Maybe it's a two part.  One written, one verbal?  Again, measurable, achievable, and now with some sort of reward/recognition.  All keeping it fun.  The critical part is, as Niri Te stated, don't inadvertently create a caste system or one that promotes status quo.  

Isn't it about the fun of learning, sharing, and being part of something unique and meaningful to one another?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 09:19:05 pm by Taronyu Leleioae »

Offline Ateyo Te Syaksyuk

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Re: Ideas for a standardised Na'vi (certification?)
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2012, 09:37:05 pm »
Oe mllte hu 'Eylan Falulukanä, except that most learners, ti'efumi oeyä, in my opinion, don't learn as quickly as you have!  
I still refer to Le'eylanyä Prezi lessons.  And there is a Na'vi workbook that looks fun, called, or written by Kaltxì Palulukan.  A standardized set of materials would make learning a progressive experience. (Rather than a haphazard one.) And I think that among ayharyu, it would be useful in the ways mentioned.  Tests scare people.  But if they progressed smoothly, they might not realize they had actually been tested and passed.  Grammatical terms also confuse people, myself included. But the sentence structures mentioned by Plumps are intriguing,  Learn a few useful phrases and then decipher the grammer.
   Frommer has provided a list of useful phrases.  Many could be incorporated into simple conversational lessons.  He created three or four lessons for the meet up.  I saw those only today.  But perhaps he would applaud the idea of formalizing the lessons. I like the idea of a Primer.  Someone on this site created a book called Kaltxì Prrnen, based on a children's book called Hello, Baby.  I have an idea, that is currently on the back burner  for a book similar to the Curious George stories that I grew up with. I've worked out the text with Tirea Aean and it will feature a syaksyuk instead of a chimp. Ateyo Leomum.  And of course there will be my famous line. "Oel ngati kakuk hu apka fkxen!"  I strike you with large fruit!
  But I digress.  I like the idea of a Primer, and if someone needed an illustrator for Fun with Neytiri and Tsu'tey, I volunteer!

Offline Tsyesìka

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Re: Ideas for a standardised Na'vi (certification?)
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2012, 06:08:34 am »
Hey,

Lovely to see this conversation take off, I went to sleep and there had been a ton of action. Anyway. The reason I have made level one basic in my inital post is mainly because I think when you're working towards a certification of some description it's still big you still are required to know a lot and if someone completes this in a week then that's amazing, go for level 2 or 3? I suggest making more levels and less content to achieve the levels would be the best idea, as the levels go higher you can increase content as learning a language does get easier once you've got the basics covered.

Get to level 5 or something we could even set students story writing challenges or poems, even songs! which not only would help them learn and such but incrase the amount of origional na'vi litrature around. As to what skills will be covered I think it's improtant both the reading/writing and the speaking/listening. A key skill is to be able to understand what you're being told but also respond in a way that's understandable. I personally have only begun speaking/listening but my reading/writing in na'vi is not too bad now (far from perfect but I can have converations without dictionaries and grammar guides now and write blog posts purely in na'vi with it so I think i'm not too bad). I would probably be on level 2 or 3 (depending on how much content we shove in each level) mainly due to my speaking but that's not a bad thing and being at a higher level than level 1 means I could also teach level 1. More skilled people to mark work, field questions and practice with the better right?

As for the best way? I say using it... my na'vi ability shot up as soon as I forced myself into using whenever i possibly could, it exposed me to more and more vocab, I got more and more familiar with the voab I knew and the forms they could take (lenitied, affixed, etc..).

Finally and I think this is possibly the most important is avoid English, german, spanish, etc... whatever it may be you speak avoid it at ALL costs. We could produce video's of someone saying something like:

Oel payit nayäk
<drinks water>
Oel payit namäk

Hold up the glass of water and say pay. There doesn't have to be a single word of english in the video. Some words like kä could be hard to avoid english but we should still do our best, try and do a na'vi only section in lessons and have na'vi only chats with students. As a learning one of the most tempting things you can do is drop to english and one of the problems I had when I was learning was trying to translate... translation is a very difficult skill even for those who are fluent in any language it's harder than just using it... so why ask learners to do it? We're not learning na'vi to translate we're learning na'vi to chat, understand the film, etc.. If you look at my mock test I drew up you'll notice I never asked them to translate something. I tested their understanding by asking them questions in na'vi and if they responded aproppriately you can assume they understood. Just my opinions on this I know some people don't agree with me but I'm pretty sure adding any language besides na'vi won't only make learning material useless for those who don't know the language you add but will be detremental to the learner too.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Ideas for a standardised Na'vi (certification?)
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2012, 07:06:54 am »
Quote from: Tsyesìka
As for the best way? I say using it... my na'vi ability shot up as soon as I forced myself into using whenever i possibly could, it exposed me to more and more vocab, I got more and more familiar with the voab I knew and the forms they could take (lenitied, affixed, etc..)

This. I very much agree.

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Offline Niri Te

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Re: Ideas for a standardised Na'vi (certification?)
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2012, 09:02:43 pm »
As for the best way? I say using it... my na'vi ability shot up as soon as I forced myself into using whenever i possibly could, it exposed me to more and more vocab, I got more and more familiar with the voab I knew and the forms they could take (lenitied, affixed, etc..).

Finally and I think this is possibly the most important is avoid English, german, spanish, etc... whatever it may be you speak avoid it at ALL costs. We could produce video's of someone saying something like:

Oel payit nayäk
<drinks water>
Oel payit namäk

Hold up the glass of water and say pay. There doesn't have to be a single word of english in the video. Some words like kä could be hard to avoid english but we should still do our best, try and do a na'vi only section in lessons and have na'vi only chats with students. As a learning one of the most tempting things you can do is drop to english and one of the problems I had when I was learning was trying to translate... translation is a very difficult skill even for those who are fluent in any language it's harder than just using it... so why ask learners to do it? We're not learning na'vi to translate we're learning na'vi to chat, understand the film, etc.. If you look at my mock test I drew up you'll notice I never asked them to translate something. I tested their understanding by asking them questions in na'vi and if they responded aproppriately you can assume they understood. Just my opinions on this I know some people don't agree with me but I'm pretty sure adding any language besides na'vi won't only make learning material useless for those who don't know the language you add but will be detremental to the learner too.

THIS is how I learned Samoan AFTER the Coma. Every time someone tried to say something to me in English, I shook my head no, and said, "Fa'amolemole, Leai English". After a while everyone in the town knew how badly I wanted to learn Samoan, and they obliged, with mush pointing, demonstrating, and body language, I S-L-O-W-L-Y learned enough to where I could be taught in Samoan, and then I started learning quickly.
Problem IS, that we DON'T live on Eywa Eveng, where everyone speaks niNa'vi, so how would we get around that without regional Minimeets with the emphasis on learning Na'vi in an intensive Na'vi environment, once or twice a year per region. Ateyo and I would be willing to pay for such an opportunity, if I didn't have to travel almost 2,000 miles each way to do it.  There may be others that would be willing to do that too. Perhaps a poll is in order??  Niri Te
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Ideas for a standardised Na'vi (certification?)
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2012, 02:35:17 am »
The immersion thing works, if you can find a place where one can be 'immersed'. I'd love to spend a month with someone like TA and just speak Na'vi with him  :)

Trying to teach with just learning words through example is like trying to train one of our broadcast operators to run a complex piece of gear by telling them which buttons to push and when. If instead you teach them the general concept of how the device works, and what the buttons actually do, the operator still learn which buttons to push and when. But if something is different for some reason, they know instinctively what to do differently to respond, without needing help or retraining.

So, you can rote-teach people a bunch of words, and even some inflected forms of words. But how do you teach important concepts like the use of the <iv> infix? or Adjectival attribution? This is hard to do properly with just word-pictures.

The word-picture idea is a really great way to get things going. But some more formal instruction is still needed if you want to be a good Na'vi speaker.

I think there is more than one way to do this kind of learning. And all the learning methods can be tailored to meet the same learning goals, as in proficiency tests. Perhaps the best wat to do this is to break up the interested folks here into 3 or 4 teams. One team could work on the word-picture learning concept, another on quasi-immersion learning, yet another on a more traditional approach, etc. And it could well be that a student would eventually be exposed to all the different learning systems, for variety, and because some systems work better for some concepts than others.

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Ideas for a standardised Na'vi (certification?)
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2012, 07:41:55 am »
it is possible to be immersed. just force yourself to go to /ninavi-niaw and post there often and read everyone's posts. Literally just use Na'vi as much as you can. Make it a habit. Also make it a habit  that when you do, note the correction you receive, learn from mistakes.

that's great, but the entire idea here is throwing out the middleman of translation. and also throwing out linguistic terms and teach as simply as possible.

iv can so totally be learned through immersion and correction. you don't need to even have heard the term "subjunctive mood" or even know what one is in order to use iv correctly. it's really not that hard to learn the natural way. of course you can't do it with association. you do it with (simple, non-tldr, no technical explanation) correction and immersion.

For example, if someone says somewhere

oe new taron palulukanit

just quote it and correct it like so, and get on with the conversation:

==\
Quote
oe new tivaron palulukanit

Tewti! Tsakem ke lu ftue! Etrìpa syayvi!
==/

etc etc. Because when one learn's one's first language, If I do recall correctly, it goes like this:

==\
small child: I runned around the playground!

Quote
I ran around the playground!
Awesome! Did you have fun? :D
==/

not like this:

==\
small child: I runned around the playground!

Quote
I ran around the playground!
The root verb run has a special simple past tense. Instead of adding ed to the end like many other verbs, you actually change the vowel from u to a. Hopefully this has been instructional. By the way, did you have fun? :D
==/

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Offline Niri Te

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Re: Ideas for a standardised Na'vi (certification?)
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2012, 09:10:43 am »
Oe mllte ma Tirea, ulte oeru 'oam.
ta Niri Te
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Ideas for a standardised Na'vi (certification?)
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2012, 09:16:20 am »
I believe it really is all about

Quote
repetition,repetition..

in combination with pure simple association, immersion in maximum usage, and heeding friendly simple correction.



Edit: of course the above is not the ONLY way but imo the most effective way and most fun.

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Offline Kekerusey

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Re: Ideas for a standardised Na'vi (certification?)
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2012, 03:24:59 pm »
This idea is NOT my idea, I heard it in teamspeak and figured I'd write it up. It's the ideas of
- Tirea Aean
- Kekerusey
- Tsyalatun
If I've missed anyone else please let me know via PM and i'll add you.

..
..
..

What do you guys thing it's only a suggestion but I figure it could help and obviously level 2,3,etc... can come too

What I think is that I need to acknowledge what you did & started here in forum ... there's so, so much I can't even fully begin to process it.

Given the stuff you wrote I have an idea that might interest you but I need to talk to Tirea about it first.

Keke
Kekerusey (Not Dead [Undead])
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The "Science, Just Science” Campaign (A Cobweb)

Offline Tupìawo'o

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Re: Ideas for a standardised Na'vi (certification?)
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2013, 03:53:22 am »
i think it is an brilliant ideas. but why don't we do it like. everyone who likes to learn signs up with there name.
than we send them letters via e-mail or something with basic words like hello. how are you?
like stuff what u first learn in english lessons or german or french lessons like in school. oh and don't forget the alphabet :)
most important. then when they finished it, they send it back to one of us or something when we think they are ready we send them a test.
and when it is good i could design a certification on my computer to send them and they can print it out or something :) 8)

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Re: Ideas for a standardised Na'vi (certification?)
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2013, 10:30:17 am »
i think it is an brilliant ideas. but why don't we do it like. everyone who likes to learn signs up with there name.
than we send them letters via e-mail or something with basic words like hello. how are you?
like stuff what u first learn in english lessons or german or french lessons like in school. oh and don't forget the alphabet :)
most important. then when they finished it, they send it back to one of us or something when we think they are ready we send them a test.
and when it is good i could design a certification on my computer to send them and they can print it out or something :) 8)

I am not sure I see what you mean. Can you develop a bit more ?


 

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