Author Topic: Proposals For Project NgayNume II  (Read 1092 times)

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Offline Kekerusey

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Proposals For Project NgayNume II
« on: September 30, 2012, 04:22:03 am »
This thread is for proposals for a new enhanced version of Project NgayNume … I’ll go with the flow but I think we should (at this stage) allow anyone to dump ideas in here so they can be considered. Maybe we need a separate thread for that (to stop this one becoming cluttered? Obviously I would like to be involved and hey, I was Karyuä Srungsiyu … why haven’t I got access to the KS Lounge? Moving on … so, PN2 … can we have a codename for it? I like codenames, LOL … how about NgayNume Ikran?

Anyway … amongst the reasons I had for leaving the community last time was the decline of Project NgayNume. PN round 1 worked perfectly (all credit to Tirea Aean and a few other sterling individuals on that) but then it came completely unstuck. There was no round 2 … I ended round 1 with a bunch of very dedicated students and I had absolutely nowhere to go with them. I tried doing an informal discussion thing but that didn’t work especially as some students didn’t advance as fast as others. Meanwhile I had also backtracked to round 1 with only a couple of students (both non-UK) and, brilliant though they were, it just floundered and so collapsed. The whole thing simply disintegrated.

So NgayNume as was is not a goer as far as I can see … there many students at the time and massive enthusiasm so NgayNume worked extremely well but there were not enough for a new round of classes so regional groups (based on timezones) collapsed. I suspect the low student intake will continue until Avatar II comes out and then it will ramp up massively again. So what we need is a system that can handle as few or as many students as we want … it needs (at least at the early stages) to be as near independent of real effort by others as possible because people, both students & Aykaryu, have lives.

The only thing I can think of to get around that is to have a fully structured learning system (and I know I said something about this before about the time it was falling apart) with rewards … OK the rewards aren’t much. More like a status thing but you get the idea. We could of course come up with some kind of certificate but that’s not so important.

So, my ideas for learning Na'vi as a properly structured approach would be one where you have levels of competency based on some kind of structured teaching & test system. In my mind you would not be allowed to move on to the next level until you pass the previous one.

For example (and these are just ideas) Level 1 could be vocabulary where a student might have to learn (say) 100 core words and learn how to pronounce them … this could be self-study with text, audio and video resources and easy enough to test one to one on Teamspeak or even MSN.

Level 2 could be simple sentences with inflections which could be tested in writing and/or verbally. Again resources could be much the same but you could add in a class/lesson part.

Level 3 could be maybe a translation or maybe a piece written in Na’vi then questions asked and answered in Na’vi and could contain both written and verbal components. I would see some kind of class/lesson as being essential at this point.

There may be other levels we can envisage but the only one I could think of after that would be Karyu (teacher) because at that point you’d become effectively an expert … I suppose that would almost be an invitation thing, perhaps tested by a “panel” of current Karyu. (obviously the first few Karyu would have to just agree it amongst themselves though I still think they should do the exams for, and possibly study the resources of, the previous levels).

I would combine this not only with good written resources (and I already know we, as a community, are very good at those) but video/audio ones and with “the right” to use a specific graphic (saying your achievements in your forum signature). My gut feeling is that you would have to complete each in sequence and I would expect even really experienced Na’vi speakers to do them (even of only to do them first to see if they could improve it.

I would also consider something from another project (was it Project Neytiri?) where you could buddy up with another Na’vi student (say anyone at least one level above) and in order to use the stuff I mention above in your signature you would have to be willing to buddy up with someone.

I mean yeah, all of this would take a lot to set up but a key aim should be set up something that can last, support it with some kind of pool of resources so, for level 1 at least, you could just point someone to the relevant area and say, “start there”.

Thoughts?

Keke
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 04:32:30 am by Kekerusey »
Kekerusey (Not Dead [Undead])
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Proposals For Project NgayNume II
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 09:53:12 am »
Brilliant! On point ma Keke. I'll make more specific comments when time allows. Also, +1 for Taking the initiative. Wish I had vomun more like you ;D

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Proposals For Project NgayNume II
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 12:19:56 pm »
Well, learning project really needs a learning plan. When I was PNg numeyu in launch 3(?) on January 2011, we were using prezzi lessons by Le'eylan. IMHO it was good way, on every lesson we had some theme, which was presented and discussed. From my point of view, we need:
- learning materials, like some basic vocabulary dictionary, preferably illustrated. Pictures help a lot, kezemplltxe. Connection between picture and Na'vi text (no translation to English or any other language) helps remember words better than classic dictionary.
The same for basic sentences; graphic is better than text
Grammar rules - in simple words, without linguistic slang (well, I learned something so now it helps me to understand better, but many people aren't familiar with it). Or alternatively two sets of material - for non-linguists and for those who know something about linguistic
- workbooks. Learning without practicing is ......not good. Something like KP's Learn Na'vi easy way. It helped me a lot at my beginnings.
Best idea is to create computer application with stack of tasks (question + set of possible answers), which are used in random order, so no two runs produce the same test. It help memorize phrases, correct usage of cases etc etc.

These two tools should anyone learn basic words and rules and use them passively.
- And last is speaking. It would need to create recordings and videos, so people can watch and listen and repeat. Currently IMHO is quite lack of such materials

Also homeworks are useful - on the lesson students get some simple task, which is then examined. We did this with Le'eylan - write a few sentences, create text based on pictures.... This was real fun and everyone enjoyed it!

All this should be considered to learn correct way, while keeping two rules: keep it simple and amusing. If you enjoy lesson, you learn better.
I believe, in schools would use methods we used with Le'eylan, people would go to school with joy and learn better.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Proposals For Project NgayNume II
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2012, 01:38:04 pm »
you're also on point ma Blue Elf. I can agree with all of that. :)

Offline Kekerusey

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Re: Proposals For Project NgayNume II
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2012, 03:48:32 pm »
- learning materials, like some basic vocabulary dictionary, preferably illustrated. Pictures help a lot, kezemplltxe. Connection between picture and Na'vi text (no translation to English or any other language) helps remember words better than classic dictionary.

OK ... so we need to make it visual as well. That complicates things, not badly, but increased complication means more work ... but surely that can't be impossible?

I always liked the Tree Of Voices program and even wrote my own lesson for it ... no idea if the author ever included the lesson. I also quite liked jMemorise (though, as you say, it could be improved with pictures). The other thing I liked was a bunch of audio files I had which I played in my car ... I'm discussing using some similar stuff with Puvomun though that's largely for my own benefit and slightly more complex than I'd envisage for Level 1.

At one point I recall discussing taking over development of the ToV program ... the idea intrigued me and I certainly can program in Python but I don't think I'm quite up to that.

I've been looking around to see what quiz programs are available with not a great deal of luck since I want them to deal with sounds, pictures (possibly even movies for the future) with no luck so I am wondering if I have to build something myself because at least that way, if it turns out it's not quite ideal, I can change it because I'll know how it works.

Anyway ... more thoughts later :)

BTW Tirea ... I'm very serious about trying to help you get a new incarnation of NgayNume relaunched.

Keke
Kekerusey (Not Dead [Undead])
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Proposals For Project NgayNume II
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2012, 04:03:37 pm »
I can see that you are very serious. And that is exactly what we need here. Fresh motivation.

Yes, illustrations are very good if done right.

What we need is to continue to meet the NgayNume Triple Core motto:

Association. Correction. immersion.

Associate vocabulary directly with its mental concept or image, in such a way that conveniently skips the middle man of one's native language, cutting out realtime translation, saving thought work and time.

Correct mistakes in a kind and intuitive way with as little technicality as possible, in much a similar way a toddler gets corrected. Its more natural and intuitive and less scary that way. Answering questions should also be done in the same manner.

Immerse in speaking and using the language as much as is possible in order to solidify and reinforce learned material as well as increase fluency in a natural way

This, I hypothesize, will be effective in learning the language in a natural and fun way. All methods which are and are to be proposed here should help in making this 3part mission statement a reality.

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Proposals For Project NgayNume II
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2012, 01:25:33 am »
I always liked the Tree Of Voices program and even wrote my own lesson for it ... no idea if the author ever included the lesson. I also quite liked jMemorise (though, as you say, it could be improved with pictures). The other thing I liked was a bunch of audio files I had which I played in my car ... I'm discussing using some similar stuff with Puvomun though that's largely for my own benefit and slightly more complex than I'd envisage for Level 1.
Speaking about program - ToV wasn't bad, and it had quite good successors in Seed of language 1 and 2. Selecting correct answer with audio helps a lot.
And again I must advice TA's vrrtepcli. I'm still using it, although I didn't played quiz or scramble game for a long time
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


 

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