Na'vi for dummies

[Erimeyz]

Yea.... -_- ok but you can't explain why it isn't illegal for me to make a private server on WoW. Idc what third party info you throw at me. We aren't causing damage to any profit but releasing a how to book on speaking a made up language. other wise http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/ would be breaking the law. and the best example I can use here is the fact that the made up word "Na'vi" is bound by the same laws the rest of the language is. in other words were not shout down and they can't shout this down because were not breaking any laws. the how to books only contain phonetics and other commonly known things in English. explain to me without the use of a third party site that you probably googled and tell me and the rest of the world in your words how this is illegal.

I'll take one more stab at this.

There are two separate considerations at work here: copyright and trademark.  They are very different from each other, and they have different implications about what we can and cannot do with the Na'vi language.

Regarding copyright: As I've mentioned before, languages cannot be copyrighted, even invented ones.  Only specific books about a language (such as a how-to guide, or to a limited extent dictionaries) can be copyrighted.  Anyone can create their own how-to book or dictionary without infringing on any copyrights, as long as they don't actually copy any existing how-to books or dictionaries (and for dictionaries, copying the Na'vi words themselves is okay, since neither individual words nor their meanings can be copyrighted, although the exact wording of the dictionary entry can be).  So as far as copyright goes, we are free and clear to do - and publish - anything we want about the Na'vi language or written in the Na'vi language, as long as we don't copy the works of others.

For example, the hunt song from the Activist Survival Guide is copyrightable, and the copyright belongs to Fox.  We can't publish the hunt song (in either English or Na'vi).  We can publish portions of it under a legal principle known as "fair use", but fair use covers a very limited set of circumstances.  We're okay quoting from it in order to discuss it; we would not be okay copying the whole thing with no discussion or commentary surrounding it.  But the Na'vi words themselves, and their meanings, and the grammatical rules of the language: none of these are copyrightable.  Copyright cannot stop us from publishing our own dictionaries and how-to books.

But trademark can.

Copyright covers content, like the writing in a book or the music in a song.  Trademark covers names of things, like the title of a book or the name of a song.  Fox can't stop us from writing a Na'vi dictionary, but they can stop us from calling it a Na'vi dictionary.

Fox owns the trademarks for everything related to Avatar, including the use of the word "Na'vi" to describe the aliens in that movie.  That means that they can prevent anyone from producing any product or service (including products and services which are given away for free) that uses the word "Na'vi" to describe the aliens from Avatar, or any other aliens or creatures that are similar to them.  That includes websites, dictionaries, how-to guides, and workbooks that use the word "Na'vi" as part of their identifying product name (as in "Learn Na'vi" or "Na'vi for Dummies").  Fox hasn't pursued any legal action against anyone for this yet, and maybe they never will.  It depends on what they perceive as being in their best interest.

The fact that we give these things away for free is not relevant.  If Fox decides that us giving these away for free could undermine their profits from official, commercial websites and books, then they could take steps to shut us down.  Hopefully they will decide that the best way to make a ton of money off of the Na'vi language is to let the fan-based communities grow and thrive, thereby creating a market that they can sell the official Na'vi merchandise into.  I think that's the most likely result (based on what's happened with Klingon and Paramount), but until we hear otherwise, there's no way to know what Fox will do.  In the meantime, I think it's best to do as Eight suggests: don't poke the bear, meaning don't do anything that might encourage Fox to start clamping down on unauthorized use of their trademarks.

I hope this clears things up for you.  If you're still not convinced, all I can do is suggest you consult an attorney who specializes in intellectual property.

  - Eri

[tsmukan ftu Eywa]

Thanks finally you have explained it to me Erimeyz =) no hard feelings and good debating.

[Erimeyz]

No hard feelings at all.   Thanks for continuing to ask about things you're not sure of.  After all, that's what we're all on this forum for!

  - Eri

[Swok Txon]

OMG copyright is the biggest pain in the ass

[Tengfya swizaw]

OMG copyright is the biggest pain in the ass

Ideally, copyright is a wonderful thing. It prevents people's ideas from being stolen and other nasty stuff. However, (especially recently and with bigger companies) copyright is being used, reused, overused, and generally abused to the point of, yes, being a pain in the txìm.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

I'll take one more stab at this. . .
  - Eri

Bling! Instant karma! You rock!

Also:

OMG copyright is the biggest pain in the ass

Okay, as a Sagittarius (freedom über alles!!) I can completely agree that copyright in and of itself is a royal pain in the ass. As a published author and creator of several trinkets (I would not call them mechanical inventions as per se) I am thankful that we DO have a strong, highly regulated, and strictly enforced set of copyright laws. I would not want any of my publish books stripped of their covers and printed in China (China is [allegedly] currently "legendary" for piracy of various intellectual property). But I do like the fact that a Turkish publisher gave me $700 to publish one of my books in their country, from which I may never receive another dime.

James Cameron worked VERY hard on Avatar. He deserves MOST of the money for anything that comes from it (his creation), without other people stealing his idea, or borrowing from his idea, or using his idea (say Na'vi porn--that would be highly offensive, and while possibly not technically illegal, it would damage his creation in the eyes of the buying public). Okay, while that is all fine in theory, let's talk reality:

FOX didn't just hand JC a pile of money. They have invested decades toward building a film-manufacturing and distribution system. making a film of this magnitude can a hellish process--there are endless numbers of people to hire, and with that come lawyers, regulations, city and state agencies who want their cut (in the form of permits) and on and on. It really is a massive investment in time and money. Now if I come along and write a book on how to learn Na'vi, I may be "helping their cause" (doing the Lord's work of spreading the good word about Na'vi and the Na'vi) and they may offer to publish my book through their channels, or they may allow me to publish it myself. this is all good. But the rights of the person who came up with the core belief system (the language, Na'vi society, the stories, etc.) really needs to be respected. THAT is why we have laws. Unfortunately, so many people over the decades have twisted laws to their own liking that the process can be extremely complicated--and convoluted.

So in my humble opinion, the intelligent thing to do (not the "right" thing--I am not in a mood to dictate morality) is to keep in the front of your mind (if you are actively creating FOR the Na'vi community) a passionate desire to help FOX spread the good word, and thus be of a mindset that you are "doing your own thing" in ways that will (hopefully) not infringe on their rights or desires to profit from their investment--or harm their product (Na'vi porn is "RIGHT OUT!", to coin a British colloquialism). To me, this means create, create, create, but "play nice." Know that at any time, you may create something that inadvertently reveals or goes contrary to the upcoming storyline and FOX and friends may ask you politely to remove said offensive matter from your work. Or, you may want to create something and submit it through their channels and take advantage of the multi-billion dollar empire they have set up to profit from their creations. You may gain access to their distribution channels--and literally have them sell YOUR Na'vi product while you collect royalties.

I agree with the wisdom presented above by other minds. I am merely offering a path that could easily lead us to much more (quality Na'vi merchandise and intellectual property (learning aids, stories, fan art, etc.). Sure there will be piracy and knock-offs and cheap imitations. Just wait for next xmas and Halloween and see how many CHEAP P.o.S. products come out (legally or otherwise). In the meantime, we collectively seem to have a strong desire to hlp establish Na'vi (the language) and the Na'vi (the blue people) gain traction in the public psyche. Can we do this? From looking at the various discussions here, and on other (new) Na'vi sites that are popping up, it seems we are doing just that. I believe a good operative word would be "balance."

It is in FOX's interest to keep our spirits and fascination with Na'vi and the Na'vi, and all-things-Avatar high, so that we are supporting the cause (buying tickets, merch, and yammering at our friends in a foreign tongue), but they do have the public image of their creation to consider. MARK MY WORDS: Look at Star Wars. Forget those last crappy three movies. Posters, merchandise, and hundreds of novels already. Perhaps a TV show at some point to rival Star Trek. FOX wants that. And FOX is in a prime position to create all of that--especially the TV spin-offs. We stand at the beginning of a potential multi-multi-billion dollar enterprise. FOX would like our assistance, so I am guessing (not a lawyer, so you know this is not "legal counsel") that they will "play nice" if we "play nice."

So I would hazard a further guess that it is all kinds of good to design intelligently and always keep in mind that we are really playing in their sandbox. For the most part, I think that would make them appreciate us, rather than see us as a threat to image, profit, or legacy.

Okay, so there's my 2 cents. (I think I am up to about two-fity at this point). Hope it helps

[Erimeyz]

Bling! Instant karma!

Right back atcha.  Nicely put.

(A little long, but who am I to talk?)

  - Eri

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Bling! Instant karma!

Right back atcha.  Nicely put.

(A little long, but who am I to talk?)

  - Eri

I get paid by the word 

[tsmukan ftu Eywa]

kaltxì, although I agree with what was previously made I have trouble agreeing with dustywhite with what I think he's point was. The huge paragraph wasn't worth reading past the 8th sentence. I want to show you a threat and compare it to what I am suggesting in this post. look at youtube.com, there are many youtube.com posts with exactly what I am suggesting. crash coarse in Na'vi. we will only be putting in text what in scattered over a law reinforcing website. So this book is going to simplify and make learning this language easy(er).So same concept....
the only diff. is that youtube requires no money and this will but there is still no profit because the price will cover shipping and your donation to the site. I already have two pages for this book =) I won't let them be in vain until I hit an impossible wall

some of you also missed the Non-profit part. non-profit means no money made if you didn't get the meaning.

I realized none of you got what the comparison to the video games so this may help you.

[tsmukan ftu Eywa]

ok so if I got my point across then I would like to suggest some one to wright the book. anyone?

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

ok so if I got my point across then I would like to suggest some one to wright the book. anyone?

If you look around the forum--you will find that several of us are doing just that. (No 8th sentence here--nothing to skip over--thank you for being so respectful and polite to your aysmuktu)

[Ftiafpi]

I want to show you a threat and compare it to what I am suggesting in this post.

thank you for being so respectful and polite to your aysmuktu

Just want to step in here and remind you guys to be civil. It's perfectly reasonable to disagree and/or debate matters and nothing has been said that I would say is over the line but it's very clear that you two aren't exactly seeing eye to eye on this. As long as this remains a civil debate then we're all good here, just keep in mind that we have zero tolerance for insulting anyone on here regardless of the circumstances. This applies to both of you.

Carry on.

[tsmukan ftu Eywa]

I want to show you a threat and compare it to what I am suggesting in this post.

thank you for being so respectful and polite to your aysmuktu

Just want to step in here and remind you guys to be civil. It's perfectly reasonable to disagree and/or debate matters and nothing has been said that I would say is over the line but it's very clear that you two aren't exactly seeing eye to eye on this. As long as this remains a civil debate then we're all good here, just keep in mind that we have zero tolerance for insulting anyone on here regardless of the circumstances. This applies to both of you.

Carry on.

lol thanks ref. aaaand BREAK!
sorry lol, but could there be a way to bring all these threads together? If they already are, could you give me a link?

[Ftiafpi]

I want to show you a threat and compare it to what I am suggesting in this post.

thank you for being so respectful and polite to your aysmuktu

Just want to step in here and remind you guys to be civil. It's perfectly reasonable to disagree and/or debate matters and nothing has been said that I would say is over the line but it's very clear that you two aren't exactly seeing eye to eye on this. As long as this remains a civil debate then we're all good here, just keep in mind that we have zero tolerance for insulting anyone on here regardless of the circumstances. This applies to both of you.

Carry on.

lol thanks ref. aaaand BREAK!
sorry lol, but could there be a way to bring all these threads together? If they already are, could you give me a link?

Which threads?

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Okay, it's not "Na'vi for Dummies," but the new sneak preview of the activity book is up (20 pages) here:

http://forum.learnnavi.org/your-projects-other-resources/easy-way-to-learn-navi-activity-book!/

I hope you enjoy it. It is here to help, as am I, as I am able to.