Author Topic: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft update 10 June 2019)  (Read 13471 times)

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Offline Plumps

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2014, 09:10:35 am »
I see you have combined all the auxillary word lists into one wordlist. Although I am not 100% sure the inflections should be there, it is absolutely great to see things like loanwords, flora and fauna in the dictionary again.
Thanks, Tim!
Yes, I’m not a 100% sure either. Maybe we should have a look at a language with infixes and see how they handle them in a dictionary. I included them for now just to have processed them. I can see it also being done via an appendix for the final draft. I’ll have to think about that.


Are you using a template or something like that? This is the kind of format I have always envisioned for the Dothraki and Valyrian dictionaries (the latter of which have never gotten off the ground due to limitations in EE). I would like to use it, if that is OK with you. (I'm still quite new to LaTeX as well.)
No template. It’s bits and pieces of everything. Whatever I needed I searched for and included it in the document – for me, that’s a good way to learn about the program (which was, as I said, why I started it…).

For instance, this is how the preamble looks at the moment:

After that, an entry looks like that:

:D Yeah, EE is great and all, but it really could use some improvement. I wonder if even I can ever get around to coming up with a better idea that's more simple and effective and can somehow be responsible for generating something of this caliber.. hmmmm... Backburner project, I think.
What’s really time consuming is finding and applying the links. I tried different versions of this through referencing, footnotes and so on but I could never find a satifying result. With an online database, I could imagine that this could get easier.

Also what stuck in my perfectionist head :P is the correct hyphenation. Unfortunately, LaTeX doesn’t know how to process Na’vi words other than you have to tell it where a break can occur. That accounts for the many \- … problem is, if a word has such a manual break you can’t find it via the search engine in the compiled PDF. :-\

But, It is just a pain in the txìm to write words in a code monster as in \word{kaltxì}{their IPA}....
You are so right ;)
But I still think the result is worth the work…

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2014, 07:01:15 pm »
I like this. It has the potential to be a lot more flexible than EE. It alos looks like it can be easily adapted for Dothraki, Valyrian, and I am sure other languages as well.
Irayo! But I thought about it more, and I think a future EanaEltu would have this input area especially for this type of dictionary:
It would be extremely flexible. :)

But, It is just a pain in the txìm to write words in a code monster as in \word{kaltxì}{their IPA}....
You are so right ;)
But I still think the result is worth the work…
I originally meant the EanaEltu system, but I do believe that LaTeX makes quite the same amount of work. :o
Mllte ngahu!

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2014, 01:50:25 am »
Any system that makes it easy for the end user will be at least somewhat complex on the backend. That last example by Tìtstewan probably comes closer to what I have in mind for all the languages I have worked with, than anything else I have seen. One important thing about this system needs to be, if you don't use a given class of feature (say for instance, a canon citatation), nothing involving a canon citation should show up in the final entry. That is a serious limitation of EE, and one that Tuiq can't seem to accommodate without a bunch of templates, one for each possible combination of features.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 03:21:34 pm by `Eylan Ayfalulukanä »

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2014, 02:23:08 pm »
The idea that floats in my brain is following:

The input fields are easy designed but every text field is predefined in formatting. That means the field "Na'vi Word" has in the background \textbf{Kaltxì}(~). the Na'vi word will be always in bold in the document.
Also the code part goes in the database and from that database one can use as source for creating a dictionary like Plump's version.

I think, the whole code line for one word entry would be this:
\textbf{kal{\color{purple}txì}}(~) in the "NaviWord" cell
[kal.ˈtʼɪ] in the "IPA" cell
\textit{intj.}(~) in the "WordType" cell
hello in the "Translation1"
etc.
...which would look in the doc like
kaltxì intj. hello

The basic input part would have this in the database:
ID   NaviWord   IPA   WordType   TranslationWord   Synonym   WordAddField1   WordAddField2   WordAddField3   WordAddField4   WordAddField5

This would be in the database file for the sentence example:
ExSentence   TranslationSent   ExSentence1   TranslationSent1   ExSentence2   TranslationSent2   ExSentence3   TranslationSent3   ExSentence4
TranslationSent4   ExSentence5   TranslationSent5   SentAddField1   SentAddField2   SentAddField3   SentAddField4   SentAddField5


It looks huge, but empty cells would be ignored by the pdf-creating module. :)

Huh, I think this should be a new thread :-[

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Offline baritone

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2014, 01:22:44 pm »
A great thing. I want to translate this dictionary into Russian.

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2014, 03:27:47 pm »
Ma Tìtstewan, I noticed your example word had colored letters at the end (stress indication?), and no IPA. IMHO, color in the dictionary is a bad idea, as it then requires it be printed on a color printer. Although it might look 'prettier', I think we want to keep the document as 'universal' as possible.

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2014, 03:35:19 pm »
I just took the writing style from Plumps. But, for the univeral use, one can create it without colour, of course. (there is the IPA, btw) :)

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2014, 10:39:51 pm »
I still have yet to ever print out any kind of Na'vi Dictionary on paper. I personally think it's still too bleeding edge of a language to warrant a printed dictionary. When we approach terminal lexicon capacity, and it's more stable, I'll consider printing it out. So as to not print it out, only to find that an update has added like 10 new words. Or something was spelled wrong or missing.

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Offline Plumps

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2014, 04:46:08 pm »
A little update: finished through the letter p. You can find the PDF in the first post. :)

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2014, 06:37:28 pm »
Txantsan ulte irayo seiyi!! :D
+1!

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2014, 08:17:34 pm »
A little update: finished through the letter p. You can find the PDF in the first post. :)
You can do it! :D

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2014, 02:59:30 pm »
I noticed that prrkxentrrkrr is conspicious by its absence. Otherwise, this continues to be an amazing work!

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2014, 03:11:02 pm »
Where is the official source of prrkxentrrkrr? Is this word created or confirmed by Frommer?

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Offline Plumps

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2014, 03:11:59 pm »
I noticed that prrkxentrrkrr is conspicious by its absence. Otherwise, this continues to be an amazing work!

Hm, good point … because I’m still not quite sure about its status :-\ Has it been sanctioned by K. Pawl?

And thanks to all of your for your support. :)

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2014, 03:32:55 pm »
Where is the official source of prrkxentrrkrr? Is this word created or confirmed by Frommer?

It was created by user Skxawng in the old days, and during a phone conference, he was dared to mention it to Pawl. Paul laughed at it, and from what I remember of the history, its current definition and possible application were also created and established there. And indeed from that point forward it appeared as a legitimate term in the dictionary even though it was initially a hilarious inside joke word commonly thrown around in the IRC at the time, meant to convey cunnilingus. But of course we can't have that, so its definition got changed to be more appropriate. It's still basically an underground euphemism for that through if you think about it. HRH!

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2014, 11:13:13 am »
Somewhere, I seem to recall Pawl using this word to discuss the entymology process. But I don't remember where. Could it have been the workshop audio?

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2014, 02:49:23 pm »
Somewhere, I seem to recall Pawl using this word to discuss the entymology process. But I don't remember where. Could it have been the workshop audio?

Same. I can't remember either, though.

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Offline Tuiq

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2014, 08:12:26 am »
There's been some talk about how this could be incorporated into EE and how a better dictionary system could look like - I'm feeling free to reply to some of these things here (as a spoiler though because it is quite large).



Bottom line: I'm always open to add new dictionaries, markups and I'm even listening to requests for a new system altogether - but back in November when the motivation had a peak, there didn't seem to be any interest in a rewrite whatsoever, so that project got buried. It's still an option, but I'm not going to do this alone, I want to involve everyone who would use it - translators, creators, developers and I want it to be open and community designed every step of the way. I would much rather add new content to a new system, however, than to the existing one. While it is possible, it's also huge pain.
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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2014, 09:17:32 am »
I was not comfortable with my first concept as Plumps dictionary contains reffering links to anchors. Therefore I reworked my concept with that "add additional field". As for the database, my original idea was to keep the SQL file static and generally the whole thing static. Only for interface should be "dynamic" otherwise I feared an input monster, to get finally a file that has the same layout and formatting like Plumps hand-made original.
That's why I created just this input interface:
These following code stuff has a limited input field that is behind the interface:
ExSentence   TranslationSent   ExSentence1   TranslationSent1   ExSentence2   TranslationSent2   ExSentence3   TranslationSent3   ExSentence4
TranslationSent4   ExSentence5   TranslationSent5   SentAddField1   SentAddField2   SentAddField3   SentAddField4   SentAddField5

In this example are only 5 possible "example sentence" input fields and the SQL file would have for each word those fields ready for text input. (of course, one can increase the limit up to any number that would make sense, like 10 or 25. And yes, I see the problem if one want to increase the limit in the future....)
The PDF-creator modul uses the SQL data to create the dictionary. The epty fields should be ignored by the creator modul. My whole idea was not to make the database dynamic rather the input field for better use by people/translators.
Of course, nothing of my idea is perfect and I do believe that there could be better things/ideas. Also there could be something else than that LaTeX thing.
And I'm open for other ideas. :)

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Offline Tuiq

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Re: An Annotated Dictionary (Draft)
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2014, 09:46:06 am »
The problem is that your approach is way too static and it will break sooner than you would like to. In the beginning, EE had.. 6? fields. We had to bump that to 12 for some templates. Every time you do that in your system, you have to change the database layout and everything that relies on it - output, input, validation, creation. It's not flexible, you can't say "Today I'll have that field, next week I'll add another". You're bound to whatever layout you have, which is something EE can't and won't do. It is, after all, supporting different dictionaries (Dothraki has very different needs than Na'vi, which has different needs than {insert language here}).

In addition, you have to cover all cases. A good example would be those words that are combinations of two or more:

\cw{Eywa'eveng}{\textsecstress Ej.wa.\textprimstress PE.vEN}{prop.n.}{Pandora (informal pronunciation [\textipa{Ej.\textprimstress wE.vEN}])}{Eywa}{Gaia}{'eveng}{child}{JC, PF}

In this case, we have 9 arguments. EE numbers those from 1-9 and saves them accordingly in the database. The only thing that prevents the parser from going completely bonkers ("What the HELL am I supposed to do with the data you're throwing at me?!") is the cw in the front: It defines clearly that 1 is the Na'vi part, 2, IPA, 3 the type, 4 the English part, 5 the first Na'vi compound, 6 the first English compound, 7 the second Na'vi compound, 8 the second English compound and 9 the source.

However, 9 isn't always the source. Sometimes it's 8. Sometimes it's 7. It could be 3.

Therefore, any system which has a static database, or simply just "numbers" fields, is going to fail horribly. It's actually a miracle that EE works the way it does with pure arrays.
Eana Eltu: PDF/TSV/jMemorize

 

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