Author Topic: Any one done a phonetic dictionary  (Read 1380 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rakel_wolf

  • Ketuwong
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Karma: 0
Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« on: January 19, 2010, 01:50:58 pm »
Kaltxì friends

Has any one done a phonetic dictonary because it is easy to show how these words should be pronounced.
for those who dont know what i mean a dictionary where it has the word
e.g You

and then in brackets how it sounds

e.g u or yoo

so we get something looking like this

You (yoo or u)

Irayo

Matt

Offline Eight

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
  • Karma: 19
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2010, 01:58:40 pm »
Taronyu's dictionary has the IPA for all words.

You can find it in his signature, or I think it's in the useful documents for beginners sticky in the beginner's forum.

Offline rakel_wolf

  • Ketuwong
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Karma: 0
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2010, 02:07:14 pm »
IPA ?

 
Maìtt

Offline omängum fra'uti

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3804
  • Karma: 127
  • Na'vi's first grammar nazi
    • Pronounced Na'vi words
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2010, 02:11:16 pm »
IPA is an unambiguous way to transcribe pronunciations in a language independent manner.

However, a phonetic dictionary is not as useful in Na'vi as it is in English.  There is no pronunciation ambiguity in the spelling of a word.  Letters & digraphs are pronounced exactly the same in every single word they appear in - so the transcription from word to IPA is pretty much just a 1:1 replacement of sounds.  There are no silent letters, no odd rules with exceptions, no similar sounding words spelled differently or different sounding words spelled similarly.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Offline Eight

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
  • Karma: 19
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2010, 02:14:39 pm »
IPA ?
Ah right, I getcha now. Knowing you're not familiar with IPA makes the request easier to understand.

So  you're wondering if anyone has done a dictionary where the words are spelled using English "equivalents" to guide pronunciation? Haven't seen one, but it isn't the worst idea.

Offline rakel_wolf

  • Ketuwong
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Karma: 0
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2010, 03:50:33 pm »
so is the words basicly spelled like they sound so
ye'rìn (soon) pronounced yee-rin ?

Offline omängum fra'uti

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3804
  • Karma: 127
  • Na'vi's first grammar nazi
    • Pronounced Na'vi words
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2010, 04:04:42 pm »
They are spelled like they are pronounced within the phonetics of Na'vi.  The "e" in Na'vi is more like the e in "bet" than the e in "bee".  There are a few articles about pronunciation in Na'vi.  The "rìn" part would sound about like that, except that the "r" in Na'vi is pronounced as an alveolar flap.

To be more specific, every letter in a Na'vi word is pronounced, and every letter has one and exactly one correct pronunciation.  (Excepting digraphs like ng, ts, px, tx, and kx, which you count as one letter in that sense - each produces a single sound and always produces that sound.  It's an easy exception in most cases because g and x never appear on their own.)  So once you know the correct pronunciation of each letter, you should be able to look at any Na'vi word and know how it should be pronounced.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 04:08:38 pm by omängum fra'uti »
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Offline Taronyu

  • Meals on wheels
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2718
  • Karma: 154
  • Lacho Calad! Drego Morn!
    • Burnt Fen
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2010, 04:53:48 pm »
IPA ?
Ah right, I getcha now. Knowing you're not familiar with IPA makes the request easier to understand.

So  you're wondering if anyone has done a dictionary where the words are spelled using English "equivalents" to guide pronunciation? Haven't seen one, but it isn't the worst idea.

Considering that this is an international forum, and that that means that English is certainly not pronounced the same by everyone who is going to read this, I actually think that this is a pretty bad idea. That's why IPA is so useful. It's not ambiguous, and, if learned correctly, cannot be misunderstood.

There's also an audio dictionary. That's not so bad.

Offline Eight

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
  • Karma: 19
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2010, 05:01:09 pm »
Considering that this is an international forum, and that that means that English is certainly not pronounced the same by everyone who is going to read this, I actually think that this is a pretty bad idea.
I didn't say it wasn't bad, I said it wasn't the worst.

I've had plenty worse ideas than that - I just usually manage to avoid posting them on the internet before I realise the error of my ways.

Offline rakel_wolf

  • Ketuwong
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Karma: 0
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2010, 04:08:42 pm »
in the english language there is a standardised way to say a word ie b-u-k for book although some people say book b-ou-k that is actually wrong because of the accent phonetics show you what sound to make its the most simple and easyest way to understand how to pronounce a word its what they use for kids with diffeculty reading and pronouncing there letters and words its a recognised way of teaching people to pronounce words

Offline Kiliyä

  • 'Eveng
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
  • Karma: 8
  • Olo' Ostreylie
    • Wild Dog Wargaming
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2010, 07:53:25 pm »
Standardised for whom?  Aussies, Kiwis and South Africans all speak English, but there is so much variation between them that sometimes words are unrecognisable.  Even within the USA or UK, there is huge variation.  It's like trying to standarise spelling!
Peu sa'nokyä ayoengyä?  Pefya ayoeng poeru kìte'e sayi?
Pefya ayoengìl poeti hayawnu, na poel ayoengit hawnu?

What of our mother?  How shall we serve her?  How shall we protect her as she protects us?

Offline Eight

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
  • Karma: 19
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2010, 02:23:30 am »
Standardised for whom? 
I'm assuming those teaching materials use RP (Received Pronunciation or Queen's English if you like) as a standard. However, I have my doubts as to how well using RP English to tell people how to pronounce Na'vi will work unless you already speak proper like wot I do. :D

Offline Eight

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
  • Karma: 19
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2010, 02:31:13 am »
ye'rìn (soon) pronounced yee-rin ?
Btw... ye'rìn... the e is a kind of longer ehh not an ee, and the r is not an r that we really use much in English. Certainly not at the start of a word like rin would imply.

What would you use for the alveolar flap? R in standard English is an approximant btw.
Edit: looked this up for you: IPA [ɾ] (Na'vi r) is an allophone of /t/ and /d/ in unstressed syllables in North American English and Australian English.

I'm certainly interested in seeing what you come up with despite the problems.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 02:37:37 am by Eight »

Offline rakel_wolf

  • Ketuwong
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Karma: 0
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2010, 03:47:32 pm »
well queens english is the correct way to say it but other people like my self do use slang or in different accents this is bound to happen to na vi it does with every language but phonetic still shows how it is ment to be pronounce properly thats is if my method of translation is right but it seems to be so far

Kaltxi - Kalt-ihh

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3519
  • Karma: 65
  • po a ke lu wew
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2010, 04:26:09 pm »
IPA is an unambiguous way to transcribe pronunciations in a language independent manner.

However, a phonetic dictionary is not as useful in Na'vi as it is in English.  There is no pronunciation ambiguity in the spelling of a word.  Letters & digraphs are pronounced exactly the same in every single word they appear in - so the transcription from word to IPA is pretty much just a 1:1 replacement of sounds.  There are no silent letters, no odd rules with exceptions, no similar sounding words spelled differently or different sounding words spelled similarly.

It's unambiguous apart from syllable breaks (mawey could be ma.wey or maw.ey).

Standardised for whom?
I'm assuming those teaching materials use RP (Received Pronunciation or Queen's English if you like) as a standard. However, I have my doubts as to how well using RP English to tell people how to pronounce Na'vi will work unless you already speak proper like wot I do. :D

RP's only considered correct in the UK and possibly SA, Australia, NZ and the other former colonies. In America pronounciation is all done based on GA (general American), or at least, that's what wikipedia seems to show.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

Offline Eight

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
  • Karma: 19
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2010, 03:09:59 am »
RP's only considered correct in the UK and possibly SA, Australia, NZ and the other former colonies. In America pronounciation is all done based on GA (general American), or at least, that's what wikipedia seems to show.
That would make sense. Traditionally, RP was used as the standard across the globe but times change and in general , language teaching shifted towards teaching people to speak how others speak, not how the BBC/Queen used to think they should. The notions of correctness have in many ways been abandoned.

I'm probably wrong, but I think the only place where RP is really still taught is India. UK schools don't make much effort with it anymore either.

If I see instructions based on General American I just put on my best John Wayne accent and give it a go. The only more modern impression I can do is Miley Cyrus... so neither really help with languages. :D

This is why I love IPA.

Offline rakel_wolf

  • Ketuwong
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Karma: 0
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2010, 11:30:11 am »
no queens english is RIGHT because USA NZ and AU variations are not correct because or different words and how the language has evolved for them any why so negative about it

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3519
  • Karma: 65
  • po a ke lu wew
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2010, 12:40:50 pm »
no queens english is RIGHT because USA NZ and AU variations are not correct because or different words and how the language has evolved for them any why so negative about it

Queen's English is considered correct in Britain but not in many of the former colonies or the US because, as you say, their language has evolved separately and, for some of them can be considered different enough to potentially be different dialects (stereotypical African-American English, Caribbean English and Indian English all have grammar and syntax that is slightly different from British English's).

I'm not being negative, just realistic when I say that using simple phonetic spelling is not unambiguous because people from different people around the world view different pronunciation as correct and so you can't make it work.

I'm probably wrong, but I think the only place where RP is really still taught is India. UK schools don't make much effort with it anymore either.

It's taught in India? From the call centres we get sent to in England you wouldn't know it :P. Also, here in England, they at least attempt to teach Queen's English (not that they often get very far with that).
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 01:52:11 pm by kawngä mungeyu »
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

Offline Eight

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 368
  • Karma: 19
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2010, 12:56:58 pm »
It's taught in India? From the call centres we get sent to in England you wouldn't know it.
Hahaha.

Quote
Also, here in England, they at least attempt to teach Queen's English (not that they often get very far with that).
I haven't seen any English language / literature school materials for a while which really make much effort with RP anymore. Though they obviously don't tend to actively encourage slang and dialectal forms that much either. But I'm not a teacher, and there's a lot of variety in schools depending once you go above the basic curriculum.

When my mum was at school, learning RP *was* pretty much the entire English language course.

However, it's a long time since you couldn't get on the BBC if you had any kind of accent, and since universities didn't want you unless you spoke the Queen's.

BTW I'm English too. :)

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3519
  • Karma: 65
  • po a ke lu wew
Re: Any one done a phonetic dictionary
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2010, 01:53:08 pm »
Ok. Are you in school atm or not?

RP certainly isn't taught any more but in my experience Queen's English is.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.17 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines | XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, LightStorm Entertainment or The Walt Disney Company.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi