Casual Speakers...CLICK HERE!

[Eana Ketuwong]

Kaltxì! I have this website called http://teamnavi.forumcircle.com. It's all about the Na'vi culture; and I have a section called "Speaking Na'vi: Speak it Like the Natives!" I speak very formally, and I need some help with those who aren't so formal. If you would like to help out, please say so. (Message me.) Irayo!

['Oma Tirea]

I got your PMs.  Tse... I'd be willing to help out a little, knowing how I try to loosen the language a little myself

[Eana Ketuwong]

I got your PMs.  Tse... I'd be willing to help out a little, knowing how I try to loosen the language a little myself

(Hehe, I only messaged you once...it was Txur Tirea and Avatard that were being weirdos about it...) Irayo for helping out!

[Plumps]

Sre fwa sar lì'fyat nìfya'o letrrtrr, sweylu txo tsulfä sivi fko tsaru nì'awve...  

[Eana Ketuwong]

Sre fwa sar lì'fyat nìfya'o letrrtrr, sweylu txo tsulfä sivi fko tsaru nì'awve...  

If I have translated correctly...then I already know Na'vi, still suck at grammar, but I speak formally. Not sure if I completely understand...still a little slow when I translate Na'vi to English. So yes, I should do it myself and master the language, instead of reaching out and asking people to use their time to  help me.

['Oma Tirea]

Sre fwa sar lì'fyat nìfya'o letrrtrr, sweylu txo tsulfä sivi fko tsaru nì'awve... 

Ma Plumps when learning any language, it is taught formally to begin with.  You'll get to know such a language more colloquially by developing a feel for it (speaking it frequently, for example).

[Plumps]

If I have translated correctly...then I already know Na'vi, still suck at grammar, but I speak formally. Not sure if I completely understand...still a little slow when I translate Na'vi to English. So yes, I should do it myself and master the language, instead of reaching out and asking people to use their time to  help me.

That's not what I meant, ma Ean Kewong
It's never wrong to ask for people's help with a project escpecially with a community as helpful as this one is

Ma Plumps when learning any language, it is taught formally to begin with.  You'll get to know such a language more colloquially by developing a feel for it (speaking it frequently, for example).

Agreed.
But how can one develop a feel for the language ... with no native speakers around?

If we go about it just from the premise that we 'just' speak it and observe our tendencies ... then there would be a lot of {-æ} dropping with English speakers, a lot of {ng-} instead of {ŋ}, a lot of softening of the ejectives with all those who have problems with it etc. etc. and that is just pronunciation.
Who knows what the Na'vi can leave out of a sentence in context and daily/casual speech...

I'm just saying, before we try to change the language we have into something casual we should develop the language we have (which is not concise) and master it first. There are enough beginners who have problems remembering every aplicable rule (to make it 'High Na'vi' if you will) as it is. Forcing into casuality would only confuse everyone

Just my 2¢

[Eana Ketuwong]

Huh. True that. HAH! I DO suck at translating!

['Oma Tirea]

If we go about it just from the premise that we 'just' speak it and observe our tendencies ... then there would be a lot of {-æ} dropping with English speakers, a lot of {ng-} instead of {ŋ}, a lot of softening of the ejectives with all those who have problems with it etc. etc. and that is just pronunciation.

There's a lot more that that for pronounciation, that I've seen even the mighty speakers implement as well (which worries me much).  The problem is that sometimes we may try hard, but we still speak the language somewhat in the tongue of our mother language, whatever that is.  It has driven me OVER THE EDGE

Spoiler

Consonant issues

For languages that don't allow [ŋ] in initial position, something like /ŋg/ or even /g/ may be substituted.  For languages that don't have this phoneme at all, /n/ or /ŋg/ is used in final position instead, and /ŋg/ in medial position (that is, in the middle of a word).

For languages that don't allow [ʦ], it may be split up into /ts/, worse yet there may be an epethentic vowel somewhere.

For languages that don't contrast [v] and [w], words like vay and way could merge.

For some languages, [v] and [z] may become devoiced, causing words such as zam and sam to become homophones.

[h] may disappear or always shift to something like /x/ for languages that don't have [h].

[ɾ] and [l] may vary amongst languages.  This is especially true for [ɾ], the Na'vi rhotic.  [l] may or may not shift to /ɫ/ (For English it has happened), or it may merge with the rhotic, or become vocalized (i.e. become /o/ or /u/ after vowels).  [ɾ], on the other hand, could morph to /r/, /ʀ/, /ʁ/, /ɹ/, /ɻ/, /ɽ/, or even /ɺ/ or nothing, depending on the language.

Some, if not most, languages tend to have trouble with the pseudovowels.  An epethentic vowel may be inserted.

[p], [t], [ʦ], [k] may not be treated as plain unaspirated.  Simply because of their spelling, the may become aspirated (this has happened for English learners of the language).  In addition, they may not be unreleased in final position.

[pʼ], [tʼ], and [kʼ] could vary considerably amongst languages.  Some languages, such as Georgian, might not have a problem with these consonants.  Others may butcher them.

The glottal stop, [ʔ], may be prone to omission, making words such as 'i'a and 'ia homophones.  It could also cause confusion amongst plural and singular nouns beginning on a glottal stop.

Consonant clusters that are native to any one language ([fk] to English or [st] to Spanish, for example) may have an epethentic vowel (for example [fko] may shift to [fə.ˈkʰɵʊ] in English, and [sti] may shift to [es.ˈti] in Spanish).

Geminate (long) consonants arising from ay+ or the adpositions may be shortened, depending on the language.

Vowel issues

For languages that don't have [a] (Standard English dialects/accents, for example) /ɑ/ or /æ/ may be substituted.

For languages that don't have [æ], /a/ or /ɛ/ may be substituted (simply because of spelling even /e/ may occur).  Some languages (English, for example) have [æ], but not in final position.  There /ɑ/, /a/ or /ɛ/ may be substituted instead.

For languages that don't have [ɛ], /e/ or a diphthong equivalent (/ɛɪ/, /ɛi/, /eɪ/, or /ei/) may be used instead.  This is especially true for final position where [ɛ] is usually not allowable.  In English /i/ may sometimes be used, although more often than not, it is usually /e/ or /eɪ/ (which is still incorrect).  While /e/ may sound like /ɛ/ to some Na'vi speakers, to others it may sound like /ɪ/ (making a word such as fte sound like ftì, and be mistaken for ftxì).

For languages that don't have [ɪ], /i/ may be substituted.  This is especially true for final position where [ɪ] is usually not allowable (thus merging sì with si).

[i] for English learners, simply because of its spelling, may become /ɪ/ or /aɪ/.

[o] is prone to various treatments, such as morphing to /ɔ/, /ɔʊ/, /ɔu/, /oʊ/, /ou/, /ɵʊ/, /əʊ/, and even /ɒ/ or /ɑ/.  In English it is /ɵʊ/, /əʊ/, /ɒ/ or /ɑ/ mainly due to the spelling (this is dangerous as words like txan and txon can merge!).  Remember, Na'vi has no "ou"/"ow" diphthong at all.

[u] in English (and maybe some other languages) may shift to something more central, such as /ʊu/, /ʊ̶u/, /ɨu/, or even /ɪu/.  Sometimes /ju/ may occur because of spelling.  /ʌ/ may be used although more often than not it is usually one of the other possibilities forementioned.

Various treatments of the diphthongs can occur, such as splitting up the vowels and shifting the vowels as described above.  English (and French and probably a few others as well) is particularly notable for its butchering of the diphthongs based on spelling pronounciation:

[aj] may shift to /ɛː/, /eː/, /ɛɪ/, /ɛi/, /eɪ/, or /ei/
[ɛj] may shift to /eː/, /eɪ/, or /ei/, making words such as ke and key merge.
[aw] may shift to /ɑː/, /ɔː/, or /oː/, possibly making words such as 'awm and 'om merge.
[ɛw] may shift to /ew/, /iw/ or /ju/, possibly making words such as few and fu merge.

In some languages, vowel reduction may occur.

For all vowels, length of the vowel may vary (for example it may be long in final position, and short pretty much elsewhere).  Words like fya'o-o may not be moraically split, but instead be a prolonged vowel.  Remember, Na'vi has no true long vowels at all (excusing those interjections with long vowels).

The truth: pronounciation of a language is more meaningful than most people think.  If it is not properly studied, problems such as homophones may arise!  In addition, if you have not studied and worked on pronounciation enough, or have worked on it incorrectly, you will be easily labeled as a non-native speaker of that language.  You don't want that, and especially not for Na'vi, that language you have come to love.

[Plumps]

True.

Thank you for this detailed listing, ma Inspirata.

To be honest, I'm of two minds about that. On the one hand I am somewhat of a 'language purist' (of the present state ) and I think we all who are learning and try to not only write but use it as means of communication try to master pronunciation because, as you said it is very important. On the other hand I see these (at least partly) as a natural language development—everybody who has a rudimentary knwoledge of languages knows that they are subject to change and that too is part of a 'natural' language.

But a good pronunciation is key to easy understanding. That's why I think it's important to have as many audio examples as possible.

Ma Inspirata, does your mic work by now? I would love to have samples of words/sounds from a phonetic-expert Symbols and IPA representations are fine and all but also, for beginners it might be difficult to know which sounds are meant. I for example, thought until recently that the /ɛ/ (although I pronounced it after the model of Frommer's kem, len, 'efu etc.) was something different and explained it to people as such ... we are all not protected against errors

[omängum fra'uti]

This is starting to wander a bit off topic from the original thread, but I completely agree having more spoken samples is important (And having peer reviewed spoken examples as well).  Even without a mic, someone well versed in phonetics can be very useful in reviewing pronunciation, if they have a good understanding of Na'vi phonetics.

Perhaps start a new thread about pronunciation and possible projects related to that?

If we do want to develop a casual guide to spoken Na'vi (And I agree with others that it's important to learn more formal first) it's probably best to coordinate with Frommer.  He already has some things in mind and I'm sure could give guidance.  Pronunciation of Na'vi sounds, though, is not one I see being too variant in informal speech, at least not for the reasons of helping non-native speakers.  Yes, natural languages evolve in their sounds, but from the native speakers changing how they say words, NOT for the sake of making it easier for non-native speakers.  Besides, doing so would potentially only make it easier for ONE type of non-native speaker.

['Oma Tirea]

Perhaps start a new thread about pronunciation and possible projects related to that?

Hm... maybe split off the thread and put it into here? here? here? Somewhere else?

Just a thought

[omängum fra'uti]

Not all threads need to be split.  There was some relevance to the topic at hand and it wasn't many posts, nor was there anything really worthy of its own thread yet.  But it's a good idea if someone wishes to take the reins.  However, meta-discussions about how to deal with a thread are certainly not the topic at hand here.