Extending Na'vi outside borders

[Tsmuktengan]

Kaltxì!

At first, I do not post that often here, but I do used to post in the francophone section of the forum more than the general forums. For those wondering who I am, I already introduced myself here.

I have though quite some time before posting this. But I wanted to give it a try anyway. As said in the title, I am wondering about a global project where anybody could participate freely to make Navi progressively evolve as a language that could be used beyond any kinds of borders, helping to understand more clearly and share more easily basically, providing it a solid base in meaning and through a basic compatible with most people culture linked to it. A culture based on several references and issues that are present in the film and I see clearly in today's societies, globally. The language could be used by anyone independently of almost everything in any place.

I have started thinking about this since several months and have started organizing very slowly ideas I had about Na'vi specifically, how I see it can be useful and it's advantages. It's just a hobby though, nothing enormous I guess. I wanted to keep this post at first simple to get first reactions about this idea.

I would have really liked to explain all this in Na'vi, but sadly I just cannot as I don't have enough free time even after several attempts to learn.

So feel free to tell your first impressions about this idea I present you. I personally love Na'vi and think there is a huge source to have a try to make something sympathetic and why not useful, based on balanced principles I actually see in several open projects. 

I am closely monitoring this topic. I don't have much free time these days, but I want to be somewhat present. 

[Ftxavanga Txe′lan]

Hello ma Tsmuktengan!

To begin, I have to say that I like your idea. I believe "extending Na'vi outside borders" is probably the ultimate dream of this community, and it is also one of mine. In fact, the way I see it, I would say that it is even the general goal that all projects and activities of LN are trying to achieve together. Therefore, although I naturally think your idea is great, I have difficulties imagining how such a big aim could be attainted by a single new project. But first, I'd like to know what your ideas were (or other people's ideas) - perhaps it would really bring results, who knows?

[AP Nova]

I think it basically is a good idea, because we (or at least most of us) weren't here if we didn't want to use the language, which seems to be one of the main aims.
Nevertheless I'm not sure how one could realize something like that, because most of Na'vi-learning people don't have anybody else in their daily life who wants to learn the language or is at least interested in doing that, so it seems as if one would do it only for oneself.

I also noticed something interesting: You want to make the language spread, but you say that you don't really know the language and several attempts to learn it weren't succesful. To me it seems a bit difficult to make a language spread without being able to use it.

[Tsmuktengan]

Hello ma Tsmuktengan!

Kaltxì ma Ftxavanga Txe′lan.  

To begin, I have to say that I like your idea. I believe "extending Na'vi outside borders" is probably the ultimate dream of this community, and it is also one of mine. In fact, the way I see it, I would say that it is even the general goal that all projects and activities of LN are trying to achieve together. Therefore, although I naturally think your idea is great, I have difficulties imagining how such a big aim could be attainted by a single new project. But first, I'd like to know what your ideas were (or other people's ideas) - perhaps it would really bring results, who knows?

I do not know if we all have exactly the same dream and same conceptions about Na'vi, even though it seems that a lot of people here would like to expand the language in one way or the other. I do not know either if all LN projects and activities have been directly aiming to it, even if there are several ones that seem to be clearly attempting to contribute to expanding Na'vi (Project Naynume and Neytiri, Tirea Radio, Bible translation, perhaps other that I have missed). I believe everyone can place it's own brick in the structure. But I thought there were some missing parts and I wanted to suggest a few things to help giving a direction to all these projects. There are also people who are more centered on fandom as well I guess, rather than about global and ethical issues and love for the language.

I think it basically is a good idea, because we (or at least most of us) weren't here if we didn't want to use the language, which seems to be one of the main aims.

True.

Nevertheless I'm not sure how one could realize something like that, because most of Na'vi-learning people don't have anybody else in their daily life who wants to learn the language or is at least interested in doing that, so it seems as if one would do it only for oneself.

This is the point. Not one single person can achieve this on his own. One can start a project, bring an idea to life, embrace a movement, but in this case, it can only be done by a community of individuals who share the same passion and the similar goals, going ahead more or less in the same direction. And I believe that an online community and a work done through the Internet is just perfect for this.

At some point, if such a project grows well, you do not need to talk about this to your family or friends, unless they are really interested. While it grows on the net, people searching about Na'vi shall come from elsewhere. And this may increase along with visibility. So you do not need to do direct sponsoring around you. The aim is also to make the project visible enough so that you do not really need to get visitors to you, aside of what could offer some visibility, but the visitors should come from themselves to the project.

As I have been in the open source ecosystem on the web, it can work this way. LearnNa'vi has grown in a quite similar way like so many other various projects...

I also noticed something interesting: You want to make the language spread, but you say that you don't really know the language and several attempts to learn it weren't successful. To me it seems a bit difficult to make a language spread without being able to use it.

You have got a point, I have to admit. I am unable to practice Na'vi. This is true. Yet, I have understood basically how the language works, it's construction, it's rules, and the pillar aim the Na'vi language has (transmitting a message, clear, precise, concise). I know some very few words of vocabulary. So I basically have parts of the language and I think I understand it's essence. Xelloss explained me most of these parts when we met.

I think however I don't have any difficulty with the pronunciation of Na'vi though... 

But while I hope I won't be alone to embrace the movement, it would be great if several people who do practice and participate to it's evolution could share and use their experience to contribute building solid bases for a reliable and sustainable expansion.

I have centered many of my thoughts about the Na'vi languages and my ideas in a .odt document. I have to reread it to make sure I won't release it with too many errors or stuff that would be wrong (I try to be as balanced, fair and simple as possible). This may take some little time.

[Eltu Lefngap Makto]

A philosophical point to consider in all this is goals and means.  If someone had a goal, outside of this community, to build, say, "the ultimate linguafranca, to promote peace and prosperity thoughout the world", then they might have very different criteria about how to design the language.
But we didn't come here and Frommer didn't design Na'vi in a vacuum.  There is a story (a very definite movie) attached to this language.  I don't know Klingon, but I imagine at least part of the reason it hasn't caught on is that it's "cultural" is a little wierd.  Now, I know our "culture" is "wierd", but promoting the Na'vi language is inextricably bound up with promoting the Na'vi culture.
We are not entirely free to pick goals for Na'vi and then retool it for those goals.  To a certain extent, we should be looking to see what seeds of promise are already contained herein and help them grow to their fullest (and beyond!).
Think about the current spreading of English around the world, what it has accomplished and failed to do.  Remember French, Latin, Greek, Aramaic, Babylonian and Egyptian before our time.  Each had strengths and weaknesses, agendas and liabilities.  Na'vi, by its finitude, can not help but do that same.  Language is a tool, as is each individual language.  Use it for what its for.

[Tsmuktengan]

A philosophical point to consider in all this is goals and means.  If someone had a goal, outside of this community, to build, say, "the ultimate linguafranca, to promote peace and prosperity throughout the world", then they might have very different criteria about how to design the language.

I do not think so. Several attempts to design such a language for a multi-cultural and global usage using specific criteria have failed up to now. I think the way you design a language has nothing to do with this. It does not determine if people will want to learn it or not.

But we didn't come here and Frommer didn't design Na'vi in a vacuum.  There is a story (a very definite movie) attached to this language.  I don't know Klingon, but I imagine at least part of the reason it hasn't caught on is that it's "cultural" is a little wierd.  Now, I know our "culture" is "wierd", but promoting the Na'vi language is inextricably bound up with promoting the Na'vi culture.

I strictly differentiate Na'vi and Klingon. For me, they have absolutely nothing in common except one point : they have both been conceived for a film that basically wasn't supposed to be heavy philosophically, but rather more supposed to amuse like most super-productions.

Avatar nevertheless has a certain amount of references that can call to a reflexion on a wide enough variety of domains.

We are not entirely free to pick goals for Na'vi and then retool it for those goals.  To a certain extent, we should be looking to see what seeds of promise are already contained herein and help them grow to their fullest (and beyond!).

There may be some few seeds all in Na'vi. I am not sure what you precisely mean though. But I guess we are free enough to _use_ Na'vi, s is, without changing the language but let it evolve progressively, but helping it gaining a spirit and principles to help progress towards a goal. So it is not retooling, I think. It is simply using it, and completing it's spiritual and culture... not the film's culture, the culture I think we can build using the film's references and what calls to reflexion as a first base, and also using facts that are part of global issues. I believe Na'vi already has in itself, by it's use in the film, the seeds for such an aim. What would help a lot is to make these seeds germinate and then grow. This is what I am attempting to explain.

Think about the current spreading of English around the world, what it has accomplished and failed to do.  Remember French, Latin, Greek, Aramaic, Babylonian and Egyptian before our time.  Each had strengths and weaknesses, agendas and liabilities.  Na'vi, by its finitude, can not help but do that same.  Language is a tool, as is each individual language.  Use it for what its for.

Yes. Languages are for communication and sharing. And currently, even if english is widely used across wide areas of the planet, there are still many barriers where it is not used or understood well, sometime not even well spoken (broken english). These barriers are the cause of many issues, often tending to political, cultural and/or religious differences.
I want Na'vi to be used for communication and sharing before all. But as a constructed language, it must have a life, a reason to be, a culture and a reason for people to learn it, practice it and use it.
And my opinion is that Na'vi could be practiced while transmitting a message of open mind, tolerance and sharing.

I did not wait Avatar to think about this stuff. When I discovered Linux, I heard about Ubuntu, and read about the concept of Ubuntu. Today, if I just cannot stand the computer operating system and the company behind it, I am more than ever attached to this concept, and I am inspired by it. I think it would be such a great loss if it was forgotten or left in the darkness.

Considering the impact Avatar had, it's references, the thoughts and reflexions it brings on many issues, the use of this language that has been created for such an environment, that has nothing in common with any existing language (except a tad of Polynesian perhaps) or culture, there are much less possible conflicts than there would be with current widely used languages, there would be an independence from any culture, religion, land of origin (as Na'vi is now the fruit of the participation of people around the world) or nationality (as Na'vi is not specific to a single country).

Na'vi is basically for communication and sharing, like any other language. But I think it deserves more than being a simple film language. At least, cannot see any other constructed language that would fit more than Na'vi.

[Tsmuktengan]

I promised to publish my thourghts as I said. I did not have much tieme however to actually make sure everything was more or less correct or proper (the ast editions dated back to January). But here it is, with a few fixes.

http://bit.ly/ePk1dU

I offer this as a base. I consider however than what I have written as-is, is highly imperfect and I may be wrong on several points. I only wanted to provide a coherent base to work on and think about in that way, and it is only my own opinion and perception of things. I try however to be as much opened as possible.

Feel free to comment back. I am opened to everything. If only I had more time to participate more as I would like...ah, studies.