Help with translation! Please!

[Blue Elf]

Ok, thanks for all explanations, my knowledge got a little better (I hope  ) So complete paragraph summarized:

Nì'i'a fo hasey sami sìp a tsat fkol txula nìlor, for lamu tìkan sneyä fya'o sì hìmtxan syuvetä fte fmival feyä sìreyit/tìsopit.
Ha fol sngeykamä'i sneyä tìsopit fte rivun kifkeyit 'awsiteng mì/ro ketsukspawa vur.

BTW - what about previous paragraph? There were no comments, but I don't believe it contains no errors

[Tswusayona Tsamsiyu]

I didn't have time yesterday to check the site, and now that I'm back I see a lot has happened. I was replaaaced. but nice doing ma Blue Elf.
I will look at all your paragraphs and correct what I can (maybe I'll compile my own and we'll compare).
meanwhile, I should reply to your correction of mine (in the previous page):

See the 1st paragraph: ... tsìnga tutanìl ... - why singular is here, when they are four? Shouldn'i it be  sutanìl ?

when using numbers and pxay you can use either the plural form (colloquially) or the singular form.

2nd paragraph - ... nari tarmìng sanhìr, ... - I'm not sure if we can move nari before tìng, I'd write tarmìng nari

free word order, forgot? as long as nari is near tìng it is correct.

4th one - Säfpìltu harmeyn kelkumì - maybe Säfpìltu harmeyn ro helku is a little better.

he was sitting in the house not at (the location of) the house.

Krr a Sanhìyä Ftiayul sì Ewllä Vewngyul poleng - same as in my previous post.

corrected, thanks. just have to delete teri and put säfpìl in patientive.

San fì'u lu oeru sìk poltxe Fpìlyu, ulte tsakrr poltxe san slä awngal ..... Ätxäle sivi Txulayur .... - I think oeru is missing, clause looks incomplete. Deleted second poltxe - it doesn't look well if same word is repeatedly used in one clause. Why sivi is needed? I think ätxäle si ko is enough

oeru is indeed needed, but I'll put lu at the end of the sentence to emphasize that he has it. also, it's true that tsakrr poltxe isn't needed. and I'll change ulte to sì since it connects the two sayings. about ätxäle sivi ko, I'd like to hear an advanced opinion.

[omängum fra'uti]

2nd paragraph - ... nari tarmìng sanhìr, ... - I'm not sure if we can move nari before tìng, I'd write tarmìng nari

free word order, forgot? as long as nari is near tìng it is correct.

Free word order does not mean you can move any word around willy nilly.  There are some word order rules.  Auxiliary verbs seem to be one of those things, though that generally is abnout si based verbs.  However, "tìng nari" is, outside it's idiomatic usage as a verb, ungrammatical in that sort of use; alone it would mean "an eye gives" which is nothing like what it really means.  So while we haven't had a specific word on it, I doubt you could go moving the words there any more than you could say "*si oe nari" or "*oel ioangit tsole'a alor".

[Tswusayona Tsamsiyu]

ooookk.. but it would be obvious from context if I mean "look" or "give an eye".

[Tswusayona Tsamsiyu]

here are my corrections for you ma Blue Elf (for both of your paragraphs) (I am correcting the first versions):

Krr a pxefo zola'u ne Txulayu Utralfa, poru lu pxiset haseya pxisre saswaw hasey soli tìtxular alora frato nìtxan.
Sanhìyä Ftiayul, Ewllä Vewngyul sì Säfpìltul poleng Txulayur teri säfpìlit sneyä ulte tìtxusulari säfpìlä amip Säfpìltuä ätxäle soli ftxey poru txìyevula Säfpìltuä mipa 'u. Txulayu Utralfa molte ulte pol sngeykolä'i tìkangkemit pxiswaway sngolä'i tìkangkem sivi tsaswaw.

Tsa'ul namekx krrnolekx pxaya kintrrit, Txulayul ayutralit marmun'i tengkrr Säfpìltul kem soli tìsteftxaw amuiä starmeftxaw fra'ut. Ewllä Vewngyul varmewng ewllit sì ayfkxenit ulte Sanhìyä Ftiayul ngarmop atxkxerelit fya'oä sneyä fa sanhì a mì saw. Maw krr nì'i'a foru lolu 'ami'a  hu sìp a txusula a tsat fkol txolula nìlor, tìkan sneyä fya'o atsukkä sì apxa hìmtxan syuveyä fte fmival feyä sìreyit fpi sìfmusal feyä. Ha fo slamele holum alìm fte rivun tsive'a sengit alahe 'awsiteng mì vur sìsop a wou.

ask everything you don't understand.

[Plumps]

Ma Tswusayona Tsamsiyu, rutxe, remember lenition
fpi and mì both cause lenition.

It has not been comfirmed whether there is a plural form of sneyä. It was discussed that sneyä could cover both singular and plural—but was not decided

The word *tsuk doesn't exist. It's a prefix to verbs making them adjectives.

Also, a few of your 'corrections' are just variations of how one can say things differently.
Your idea of vur a wou is great One just needs to bear in mind whether this story (in the fictional context of Pandora) was told before or after Jake's involvement with the Na'vi. It's a slang word that the young Na'vi took over from Jake, so it was not in existence before 2154

[omängum fra'uti]

ooookk.. but it would be obvious from context if I mean "look" or "give an eye".

This isn't about understanding the meaning.  It's mostly understandable (Though would probably be harder if spoken) that way, BUT it's not grammatically correct.

Tìng nari - (The idiomatic form) means look
Tìng narit - (The grammatically "correct" form) means literally give eye
Nari tìng - (Also grammatically correct, but only on it's own) means an eye gives - the eye is the subject now, NOT the object.

Just because something could be understood doesn't make it correct.  If I said "Me sees you" I'm sure you would understand it, but I'm also sure many people would cringe at the awful grammar.  The three lines are grammatically different though.  The first is an idiomatic verb phrase, which is on its own taken as intransitive.  The second is part of a clause, including the object and verb.  It is likely interchangeable with the first to carry the same meaning, though the subject would need a case marking with the second and not the first.  The third means something completely different, and is itself a complete antipassive clause, with a subject and verb.

Despite the fact that there is free word order, here are a number of sentences I came up with that are NOT correct, though should all be understandable.

*Oe si srung ngaru
*Oe kelku fìtsenge si
*Rä'ä irayo si
*Ke oel kea kawtu tsole'a
*Ontu tìsraw si oeri

It might be a good idea to review http://forum.learnnavi.org/syntax-grammar/navi-linguistics-free-word-order/ - and note that in this case "tìng nari" is a constituent, which can be moved around but not altered in itself.

[Tswusayona Tsamsiyu]

thanks Omängum. I'll change it.
irayo ma Plumps, the lenitions are corrected.
about tsuk, I know. it was supposed to be tsuk+kä. I probably should have left the double "k".
about wou, this story has nothing to do with the Na'vi people so I think there's no problem.

[Plumps]

about tsuk, I know. it was supposed to be tsuk+kä. I probably should have left the double "k".

Ah, now I get it. And I took the -ä as the genetive
I asked K. Pawl in a reply to that blog entry about double consonents and he said it would be in fact tsukkä which is valid since every k belongs to its own syllable

[Tswusayona Tsamsiyu]

alright then, corrected.

[Blue Elf]

I didn't have time yesterday to check the site, and now that I'm back I see a lot has happened. I was replaaaced.

Everyone is allowed to contribute to this forum, so I simply did it I hope you aren't (too) angry

here are my corrections for you ma Blue Elf (for both of your paragraphs) (I am correcting the first versions):

Krr a pxefo zola'u ne Txulayu Utralfa, poru lu pxiset haseya pxisre saswaw hasey soli tìtxular alora frato nìtxan.
Sanhìyä Ftiayul, Ewllä Vewngyul sì Säfpìltul poleng Txulayur teri säfpìlit pxesneyä ulte tìtxusulari säfpìlä amip Säfpìltuä ätxäle soli ftxey poru txìyevula Säfpìltuä mipa 'u. Txulayu Utralfa molte ulte pol sngeykolä'i tìkangkemit pxiswaway sngolä'i tìkangkem sivi tsaswaw.

Tsa'ul namekx krrnolekx pxaya kintrrit, Txulayul ayutralit marmun'i tengkrr Säfpìltul kem soli tìsteftxaw amuiä starmeftxaw fra'ut. Ewllä Vewngyul varmewng ewllit sì ayfkxenit ulte Sanhìyä Ftiayul ngarmop atxkxerelit fya'oä aysneyä fa sanhì a mì saw. Maw krr nì'i'a foru lolu 'ami'a  hu sìp a txusula a tsat fkol txolula nìlor, tìkan sneyä fya'o atsukä sì apxa hìmtxan syuveyä fte fmival feyä sìreyit fpi sìfmusal feyä. Ha fo slamele holum alìm fte rivun tsive'a sengit alahe 'awsiteng mì vur sìsop a wou.

ask everything you don't understand.

As Plumps already said, not all your changes are real corrections. List of errors I'm aware of:
- Krr a pxefo zola'u ne Txulayu Utralfa.... - silly typo, "ke" is Czech word for Na'vi "ne", so intention was correct
- säfpìl pxesneyä ulte - ok, I didn't know it
- Tsa'ul namekx pxaya kintrrit - I really shouldn't make this kind of error
- varmewng ewllit sì ayfkxenit - also ok, both words should be in plural. Although I'm not sure, if "vegetable" is not kind of noun which has singular form, but meaning is plural (I don't really don't know linguistic term for this). In Czech, "vegetable" word can be used for both singular and plural
- ngarmop atxkxerelit aysneyä fya'oä - same as second
Are there any others I don't see?

About your version: I think I understand most, only few words:
- tìtxusulari säfpìlä amip Säfpìltuä - does it mean: regarding to building of Inventors new idea, srak? So first word is created as tì-tx<us>ula-ri ?
- ... ulte  sngolä'i tìkangkem ... - I think <eyk> is needed here. My view: without causative, work is started without carpenter's action. With causative, carpenter caused work to start, and actually carpenter started to work.
- fa sanhì a mì saw. Why a is here? I don't see the reason for this.

It is useful for learning to see different translation of the same words.

[Tswusayona Tsamsiyu]

so I will change all snos to singular.

tìtxusulari säfpìlä amip Säfpìltuä - does it mean: regarding to building of Inventors new idea, srak? So first word is created as tì-tx<us>ula-ri ?

correct. I meant "as for the building of the Inventor's idea, they asked him to...".

... ulte  sngolä'i tìkangkem ... - I think <eyk> is needed here. My view: without causative, work is started without carpenter's action. With causative, carpenter caused work to start, and actually carpenter started to work.

pay attention to the sivi. it means "work" as a verb. I meant "and he started working that moment".

fa sanhì a mì saw. Why a is here? I don't see the reason for this.

I have put this to connect it to sanhì, so one wouldn't think that the Astronomer created the map in the sky using the stars.

[Blue Elf]

fa sanhì a mì saw. Why a is here? I don't see the reason for this.

I have put this to connect it to sanhì, so one wouldn't think that the Astronomer created the map in the sky using the stars.

I think it should be clear from the word order even without a. From the point of view of my native language:
fa sanhì a mì saw means: using stars in the sky.
If I want to say: in the sky using stars, I should use mì saw fa sanhì

In Czech we have also free word element order (what is good for learning Na'vi ), but saying fa sanhì a mì saw can be confusing. Literally it means: using stars, which are on the sky. If you do not think about it too much, "which are" part is only redundant, so one can wonder why you say it so intricately (everybody knows that stars are in the sky). But another man can think that there are at least two kinds of stars - one which ARE in the sky and another, which ARE NOT there.
I think someone more experient should explain to us.
But I think we reached final point, where you can select the best translation and put complete story together. I have no other proposals nor questions.

[Tswusayona Tsamsiyu]

I have learned long ago that relying on your native language for learning Na'vi (or any other language) doesn't work and is just confusing.

the Na'vi have free word order so fa sanhì mì saw would mean exactly the same as mì saw fa sanhì. a Na'vi speaker would think that you meant that the Astronomer was making the sky. that's why sanhì and taw have to be connected somehow to create the right meaning. the a here is not used like "which, that, who" but just to connect and atribute the two words to each other.

and by the way I have the complete and correct version of the story on my computer so if no one has another thing to say I can just put it here for 7tongues.

[wm.annis]

In Czech we have also free word element order (what is good for learning Na'vi ), but saying fa sanhì a mì saw can be confusing. Literally it means: using stars, which are on the sky.

That is not quite right.  That is one possible translation of the phrase, but the particle a is simply a marker of attribution.  Sometimes that is like a relative clause (as you have interpreted it here), but it also attaches simply descriptive things to nouns.

If you do not think about it too much, "which are" part is only redundant, so one can wonder why you say it so intricately (everybody knows that stars are in the sky). But another man can think that there are at least two kinds of stars - one which ARE in the sky and another, which ARE NOT there.

Remember that the attributive particle a is basically the same as the affixed -a- used to attach adjectives to nouns.  We can say eana taw blue sky without any implication that there are skies of other colors.

The distinction you're describing is between restrictive and non-restrictive relative clauses.  Frommer has not yet issued rules about such a distinction in Na'vi, though I know he has brought up the issue a few times.

[Tswusayona Tsamsiyu]

here's the complete and corrected so far version of the story. I put it here so we can check out the complete story in its updated form without confusions (like correcting corrected mistakes), and perhaps make final corrections and changes. when everybody agrees that it's perfect 7tounges will be able to use it in his project.


Mì kamtseng txampayä lu hì'ia atxkxe a tamok tsìnga tutanìl a kawkrr ke poltxe hu pum alahe. Sanhìyä Ftiayu, Ewllä Vewngyu, Säfpìltu sì Txulayu Utralfa. Fratrr Sanhìyä Ftiayul rarmun ayvurit a pamrel sawni mì aysanhì, Ewllä Vewngyul varmewng sneyä ewllit, Säfpìltul ngarmop aysä'ot a eltur tìtxen si ulte Txulayul Utralfa txarmula lora ayut fa ayutral sì ayskxe.

'awlie mì ton tengkrr tarmìng nari sanhìr , tsole'a Sanhìyä Ftiayul futa po tsun rivun sneyä fya'ot fa sanhì a mì saw. Tsakrr pol fpolìl futa txo tsivun kivä few hì'ia atxkxe, tsakrr tsayun kivä few txampay nìwotx. Slä tslolam pol futa txampay lu apxa nìtxan, ulte fte kivä few tsa'u pol kayin txana syuvet. Ha kolä ne kelku Ewllä Vewngyuä.

Kintrr sre fì'u, Ewllä Vewngyul varmewng sneyä ewllit ulte tsakrr yayol a tswarmayon io po tolungzup vultsyìpit ta kxa peyä. Ewllä Vewngyuri vultsyìp zolup mevenulok. Krr a nolìn fì'ut, tsole'a tsata mì vultsyìp lamu fkxen a ke tsame'a kawkrr. Tsakrr po fpolìl san kxawm lu tseng a mì sa'u lu pxaya ayfkxen amip a tsayun oe vivewng sìk.
Ha krr a Sanhìyä Ftiayul poleng Ewllä Vewngyuru sneyä tìhawlit, pol fpolìl tsata fì'u lu txantsana säfpìl. Slä Ewllä Vewngyul tslolam futa txampay lu nìtxan apxa ulte mefol kayin fya'ot few tsa'u. ha kolä mefo ne kelku Säfpìltuä.

Säfpìltu harmeyn kelkumì sneyä, pxaya aysäfpìlhu a ke lu ftue.
Krr a Sanhìyä Ftiayul sì Ewllä Vewngyul poleng poru säfpìlit sneyä po fpolìl san txantsan! 'u a kin ayoel oeru lu sìk.
Po fwamew pxaya säfpìlkxamlä ulte rolun pum.
San fì'u oeru lu sìk poltxe Fpìlyu sì san slä awngal kayin tuteot a txayula fì'ut. Ätxäle sivi Txulayur Utralfa ko sìk. Ha pxefo kolä ne kelku Txulayuä Utralfa.

Krr a pxefo zola'u ne Txulayu Utralfa, po pxisre saswaw hasey soli tìtxular alor nìtxan.
Sanhìyä Ftiayul, Ewllä Vewngyul sì Säfpìltul poleng Txulayur säfpìlit sneyä ulte tìtxusulari säfpìlä amip Säfpìltuä ätxäle soli poru. Txulayu Utralfa molte ulte sngolä'i tìkangkem sivi tsaswaw.

Tsa'ul krrnolekx pxaya kintrrit, Txulayul ayutralit marmun'i tengkrr Säfpìltul  starmeftxaw fra'ut. Ewllä Vewngyul varmewng ewllit sì ayfkxenit ulte Sanhìyä Ftiayul ngarmop atxkxerelit fya'oä sneyä fa sanhì a mì saw. nì'i'a foru lolu sìp a tsat fkol txolula nìlor, fya'o atsukkä sì apxa hìmtxan syuveyä fpi sìfmusal feyä. Ha fo holum fte tsive'a sengit alahe 'awsiteng mì sìsop a wou.

[Blue Elf]

I didn't see any serious mistakes, so only a few words:
- ... futa po tsun rivun sneyä fya'ot fa sanhì a mì saw. The same case as we discussed last week in the last paragraph
- Krr a Sanhìyä Ftiayul sì Ewllä Vewngyul poleng poru säfpìlit mesneyä po fpolìl ... Sno allows only singular
- Trr akinä sre fì'u, ... As we now have word for "week", we can rewrite this like: Kinttr sre fì'u,...., although it is only my thought. Current text sounds better, I wouldn't change it.

[Tswusayona Tsamsiyu]

well, it's my bad that I didn't review the text I wrote.
kintrr is better.

[Blue Elf]

well, it's my bad that I didn't review the text I wrote.

don't worry, I'm sometimes unintentionally omitting final checking too, and I'm not alone ...

kintrr is better.

As you like it...

[Tswusayona Tsamsiyu]

so.. does anybody sees another something or is it already perfect?