Author Topic: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted  (Read 2682 times)

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Offline francoivan

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2009, 04:16:35 pm »
i'm on it
i' ll tell ya later

Offline francoivan

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2009, 04:21:40 pm »
download it
then create a new account
that's all

Offline Beduino

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2009, 04:50:52 pm »
Icq... such an old thing for me :P

here my considerantions.

Hey, I got some corrections for you to make in the Na'vi guide:

1 - The plural of tsmuk is aysmúk (since the "ts" is affected by lenition becoming "s") not ayssmúk

But, this way, you marked the plural twice. With the ay- and the lenition.
so in this case you can drop the plural marker ay- and just write smúk.
But it doesn't happen all the time, since words can be affected by lenition when you use another particles, like me-, thus you need to mark what you are using there.

2- when you talked about lenition, you put "Karyu (“teacher”) => ay-karyu (“teachers”)" as a word that isn't affected by lenition.
But the "k" DO suffer changes, and become "h".

3- Here
Quote
For words with lenition you needn’t put the “ay-“ in front. While the first consonant must be
changed, the “ay-“ needn’t be used. But it’s always easier to recognize a plural form, if this syllable is
used.
Examples:
aypun = pun
ayeveng = eveng
aysìkenong = sìkenong
But: fmetok is always singular.

Like I said, I don't think you should generalize this way, since
pxun (arm) can suffer lenition when it become aypun (arms - all the arms) or mepun (my both arms, as a pair)

And to make your examples clear, since it's a Beginner first chapter guide, you should put always the root word before using plural, verb tense, etc, on it. (my opinion :)

Now my answer to the exercise  ;) (btw, it's fya'o, not fia'o)

Meko, ayeko/eko; mefya’o, ayfya’o; mehewong, ayhewong/hewong; mesempul, aysempul;
mesmukan, aysmukan; meioang, ayioang; meeyktan, ayeyktan; metep, aytep/tep (fires??); meite, ayite/ite


About the dual prefixe me- I'll have to make a topic at the forum for some answers, not too secure about it's use ^^

Well, hope I could help! Oh, and at the translations at the end you wrote Dather, not Father :)

Kìyevame!
« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 01:23:59 pm by Beduino »
tsun ngal tslam fì'uti srak?

Offline francoivan

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2009, 05:55:33 pm »
Thanks, Yoru and I are working on it, fixing it.
I hope he see this before upload the new version :S

Offline Yoru

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2009, 04:58:41 am »
Well, thanks for all the useful hints.

I should haven been more careful with lenition. It's so easy for me to make a mistake there.


"And to make your examples clear, since it's a Beginner first chapter guide, you should put always the root word before using plural, verb tense, etc, on it." - Can you give me an example of what you mean? I don't know if you mean that I should always give the vocabulary-form, so the root, when I give examples (I actually thought I did that) or what else.

I was unsure about the "generalization" as well. But I wanted beginners to be able to read Na'vi after a few chapters, with the help of only the dictionary. And therefore they must be able to understand, if the "ay-" is left out, I thought. I won't use these forms again, after the test of chapter 1. But I thought they should have heard of this, too.

The solutions to the test in Chapter 1 are on the last page of chapter 2. Although in the second half, we sometimes have different answers, beduino, I'm quite sure about my ones - but if you can give me better reasons, I'll take your ones, of course :D


There WILL be some mistakes left, but here are the up-to-date versions of the first two Chapters.
Chapter 3 will either be about Agentive and Patientive or about attitude. I guess it will be ag. and pat. - without them, example sentences for attitude will be quite difficult.

Offline Beduino

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2009, 09:14:10 am »
Kaltxì ma Yoru. Oel ngati kameie.

about lenition, I guess you can generalize, since I got as an answer that only the prefixe "ay-" can be dropped (as far as we know).
Read this topic

"And to make your examples clear, since it's a Beginner first chapter guide, you should put always the root word before using plural, verb tense, etc, on it."

you wrote:
Quote
Examples:
aypun = pun
ayeveng = eveng
aysìkenong = sìkenong
But: fmetok is always singular.

My suggestion is to put the root word (the original one, before lenition), so it would be like:
Quote
Examples:
Root          Plural with lenition
pxun ->  ay-pun = pun
'eveng -> ay-eveng = eveng
tìkenong -> ay-sìkenong = sìkenong

But: fmetok is always singular.

For "fmetok", I think you meant that it's a singular word, it didn't suffered lenition, right?
If i got that right, I think you should be more clear about that.. I took a bit to understand it... (maybe I'm too slow?  ;D)

And the exercise answers, you are completely right, it was lack of attention from my part. I misspelled it. ;)


About the second chapter

just a few ìnglìsì details:

line 1 - You now know how to create plural
line 2 (of the first box) - are both translated with the same word in Na’vi.

Now a question about Na'vi. Here you say:
Quote
Ay-sìkenong (examples):

I walk. => Oe tìran.

You [singular] run. => Nga tul.

He does. => Po si.


Denying such a sentence is very easy: Just put the word “ke”, which is “not” into the sentence.

Ay-sìkenong (examples):

I don’t walk. => Oe ke tìran.

You [singular] don’t run. => Nga ke tul.

He doesn’t do. => Po ke si.
but when we are going to deny something, we use "don't", wich is "do + not"
so, for "don't" shouldn't we say "si ke", or something like that?

send the exercise answers for you to correct later :D
gotta go now.

Kìyevame smuk.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 11:16:28 am by Beduino »
tsun ngal tslam fì'uti srak?

Offline Ptxèrra

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2009, 10:44:32 am »
irayo, ma beduino

another thing i am to understand now, it was a bit vague
yes i am very bad at the linguistic part of the language.

but i wanna learn the language.
and thanks to you i am a bit closer
^^
Oel ayngati kameie i was there

remember power corrups, absolute power..... is a whole lot of fun.
Sheepies: They just eat grass until something kills them,  it might as well be you!!

Offline Beduino

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2009, 11:19:54 am »
irayo, ma beduino

another thing i am to understand now, it was a bit vague
yes i am very bad at the linguistic part of the language.

but i wanna learn the language.
and thanks to you i am a bit closer
^^

wow, Irayo! Always glad to help! ^^
We are all learning together here, thats the most cool part :)

Eywa ngahu.
tsun ngal tslam fì'uti srak?

Offline francoivan

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2009, 02:17:12 pm »
Kaltxì frapo!

Yoru and me want to thank to everyone by helping to do this.

ne frapo srolung.

Please, keep that help in the next chapters, 'cause, as Beduino said:


Quote from: Beduino
We are all learning together here

Thanks :)

Offline Luai_lashire

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2009, 07:06:07 pm »
Kaltxì, I am new here and this is my first post!  :)
I downloaded the guide and read some of it, but it was very hard to understand (I know some linguistic terms, but not enough for something like this).  If I am right, this thread is about making a textbook that would be simpler and easier to follow for non-experts?

I had some ideas of how to improve the guide like this.
For example, in some places, the guide has tables that compare the Na'vi word for something with an English explanation; but the English is only given in complex terms.  It isn't even actually translated.  You could add a column to the table to include an example of an English equivalent word.  For example, in the table with the different words for "I" and "We" and "They", there is no column that says which of these words are equivalent to the Na'vi words.  :/  For some of them, you might need a whole phrase, though- e.g, "oeng" = "we two (excluding you)".

Just re-writing grammar explanations to use less formal terms would help, too.... making them in more simplified English.
Also, having example sentences and exercises after each section.

Offline tute nuereime

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2009, 11:45:15 pm »
if you look at any -to learn language _____- textbook you can see how to set up the na'vi beginners guide. just basis it off of one of those textbooks
kaltxì peng oeru fra’uya niNa'Vi

Offline Yoru

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2009, 06:37:02 pm »
preset PPS: Sorry, I write too much  :-X Just wanna avoid miscommunication.

My textbooks always started with drawings and cartoons, which I would have had to draw mayself and which I DEFINITELY didn't want to terrify you with ;-)
So my idea was to give readers in the first two chapters the material for constructing VERY simple sentences and in the (not yet begun) third chapter then, the opportunity to build sentences with objects as well (which needs an own chapter because of the agentive). And that should be exactly the point were I wanted to start using sample texts.
I actually thought as well, that I didn't use difficult grammatical terms in the first two chapters so far or if, not without explanations. But the answers obviously show, that I was mistaken at that point. But on the other hand, you must admit that I have to use some terms. For example, I won't be able to speak of cases (in Na'vi: agentive, genitive, dative etc.) withouth saying their names. Then readers might be able to form and recognize these constructions - but not to name them and never to talk about them. But I seem to have overdone ;-)
I got in closer touch with 5 languages by now, so I expected grammatical terms to be known, which do not have to be known by everyone, I guess. It would be pretty much help, if you told me, WHAT terms were difficult, because, when I go through the materials again, knowing what I actually wanted to say, I won't find them easily.
But please tell me - because I really DO want this tutorial to be understandable for MANY ones - not only for those who can understand and use everything from the guide or the compendium almost immediately!

Now about some special ideas:
1. Always giving the root of a word (by beduino):
Yes, at least for the first let's say five or so chapters, I should do this. But the example you used, was the one I was very aware of leaving it out: I used exactly the examples I used only some lines ago and so thought it wasn't necessary. But especially in the second chapter, I really should do this, when giving example sentences. And in the upcoming one about agentive and patientive, there won't be any other way.
2. Having example sentences and exercises after each section (by Luai_lashire):
 :-\ I'm really sorry, but for this point I REALLY am a bit helpless: When I explained things, I always tried to give examples. Did I overlooked something or what exactly do you mean? And concerning the exercises: There will always be one or several at the end of a chapter. And, as you can see in chapter 2, there are repetition exercises as well. But I cannot use exercises as I use examples: Putting up an exercise for each paragraph meant breaking in to some of the explanations. Do you get what I want to say?
3. vocabulary tables (sorry, I can't exactly formulate your idea, Luai)
For example, in some places, the guide has tables that compare the Na'vi word for something with an English explanation; but the English is only given in complex terms. 
=> Eh? There are only the tables with vocabulary in the texts, so we must be talking about the same thing... The only "complex term" I can find there is for 'srak' - '[not translated]' and there is said, that it will be explained somewhere else... The other words (excluding "sibling") are all translated as they are in the dictionary. If you mean the annotations in between, they are to make clear, that there HAS to be something explained about these words or their forms. And it should in fact be explained by the grammatical topic of the chapter itself or - and then it's written there as well - in another chapter.
You're absolutely right, that I'd have to explain words like "oeng" more exact. But therefore I didn't use it so far. ;) If I didn't get it so far, please explain your point - I want to improve, but therefore I must know how to.

So, I resume:
- Please tell me what grammatical terms were not explained proper enough - or not at all.
- I am going to give the roots in the examples of chapter 2.
- You please explain the points I just didn't understand correctly.
- Please go one telling me how to do better ;-)

Thank you very much for your help and sorry, if I need some days to answer.

PS: I have new versions of the two chapters, including some of the features spoken about, but I will just see for a day or two, if there are bigger changes to be made, so that it is useful to adapt the whole content.

Offline Beduino

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2009, 11:01:08 am »
as soon as you upload new versions, I'll read it to give my opinion and try to help. thats for sure :)
tsun ngal tslam fì'uti srak?

Offline Yoru

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2009, 03:46:44 pm »
Well, here are the current versions. I know, I said I'd give the roots for the examples in chapter 2 - but should I really write "oe (I) & tìran (walk) => Oe tìran (I walk)." If you say yes, I will ;)

And I ask you again to tell me WHAT parts were quite difficult. Chapter 3 will have to wait until next year ;)

Offline Beduino

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2009, 04:17:44 pm »
Well, here are the current versions. I know, I said I'd give the roots for the examples in chapter 2 - but should I really write "oe (I) & tìran (walk) => Oe tìran (I walk)." If you say yes, I will ;)

And I ask you again to tell me WHAT parts were quite difficult. Chapter 3 will have to wait until next year ;)

What I meant for "root word" was not the trasnlation, but the word before lenition, or tense conjugation, etc.

if you write Tayarängon, it can be a bit hard for a begginer to get that is Taron in the future tense and pejorative.

So either you indicate that its T<ay>ar<äng>on, or give the root word Taron and explain the conjugations, or sorta. Tslolam srak? :)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 04:29:13 pm by Beduino »
tsun ngal tslam fì'uti srak?

Offline Yoru

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2009, 04:41:36 pm »
Sanre. But so far, only present sentences are used. Later one, there won't be any choice ;)

Offline Beduino

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Re: Na'vi learning guide - correctors wanted
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2009, 04:45:25 pm »
Yeah, but lenition is already used :)
well, just an opinion ^^
tsun ngal tslam fì'uti srak?

 

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