Na'vi spoken dialog

Started by Ftiafpi, January 03, 2010, 07:13:35 PM

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Ftiafpi

Quote from: ANiceSunset on January 07, 2010, 04:36:31 PM
Quote from: Ftiafpi on January 07, 2010, 04:34:00 PM
Quote from: kawng mungeyu on January 07, 2010, 04:18:03 PM
the audio dictionary is very impressive.

That said we have to make sure that this is perfect so as not to corrupt newcomers and so I'm trying to find any mistakes, so far I've found the following: the clip for Na'vi seems to be being pronounced Nä'vi. Also nari has an English r not an alveolar flap. In the apxa clip the first "a" sounds a bit like a "ä" and the ejective is only just ejected (it's good, not quite as in your face as mine but some people might miss it and this that a px is a p). Atan is being pronounced with "ä"s not "a"s. fkeu is being pronounced with a [ ʊ ] in between the f and k, also, should this be fkew and therefore pronounced [ fkɛʊ ] not [ fkɛ.u ]?

In hufwe the u is lax when it should not be. Kaltxì is definitely being pronounced kältxì. Like nari, menari has an English r not an alveolar flap. In Mikyun the u is lax being and is a [ ʊ ] not a [ u ]. Mokri seems to have an English r although I'm less sure of this than of the other rs. Munge is being pronounced mune, the ng has been replaced with n. Muntxa is being pronounced as if it ends in ä not a. Na'rìng is said with an English r.

I only have time to check the first half now, I'll do the others later. If you want I can record so words and send them to you as well.

EXCELLENT! This is awesome, I'm still at work so I'll make these changes right away when I get home. This is exactly the kind of help we need since, as you said, this has to be perfect so as not to corrupt the inexperienced. I think that's one of the reasons there's not many recorded clips of Na'vi out there because people aren't 100% sure on pronunciations and I really hope this will help.

As for more dialog, yes please! The more the better. Just pick random words that haven't been done yet, record them and send them to me (however you want, I can give you my email if preferred). If you want you can add the English-Na'vi-English part to the soundfiles but if not I can just add that in myself and I have plenty of audio editing software for cleaning up the audio files and whatnot.

This is going to be awesome, if we had like 2 more people working on this I bet we could get all the words done in a couple weeks easily!

Do you use some fancy sophisticated recording thingiemajig to record or just a regular microphone...

I use just a simple USB microphone so I get a little better quality than a headset but not much more. I do some amature voice acting so sometime in the very near future I'm going to get a new mic and a pop filter (though I just realized that might filter the edjectives, we'll see) and possibly a pre-amp but, yes, for now I just use a regular microphone.

I do however run the audio through a noise filter to remove any background hiss and ambient noise.

omängum fra'uti

Quote from: kawng mungeyu on January 07, 2010, 04:18:03 PM
the audio dictionary is very impressive.

That said we have to make sure that this is perfect so as not to corrupt newcomers and so I'm trying to find any mistakes, so far I've found the following: the clip for Na'vi seems to be being pronounced Nä'vi. Also nari has an English r not an alveolar flap. In the apxa clip the first "a" sounds a bit like a "ä" and the ejective is only just ejected (it's good, not quite as in your face as mine but some people might miss it and this that a px is a p). Atan is being pronounced with "ä"s not "a"s. fkeu is being pronounced with a [ ʊ ] in between the f and k, also, should this be fkew and therefore pronounced [ fkɛʊ ] not [ fkɛ.u ]?

In hufwe the u is lax when it should not be. Kaltxì is definitely being pronounced kältxì. Like nari, menari has an English r not an alveolar flap. In Mikyun the u is lax being and is a [ ʊ ] not a [ u ]. Mokri seems to have an English r although I'm less sure of this than of the other rs. Munge is being pronounced mune, the ng has been replaced with n. Muntxa is being pronounced as if it ends in ä not a. Na'rìng is said with an English r.

I only have time to check the first half now, I'll do the others later. If you want I can record so words and send them to you as well.

This is probably going to come across as defensive but I really don't mean it that way, but I'm just not hearing that in the clips I recorded.  (Nari, menari, atan, hufwe, mokri, na'rìng)

The only one I can somewhat hear as being a little off is atan, but I wouldn't call that the æ of the Na'vi ä but more on the side of a that is AWAY from ä not closer to it...  More like ɐ or maybe ɑ than æ if anything.  (Unless you're referring to the more central IPA sound ä, in which case that I could see, and would go with it sounding more like ɐ like I hear...  And as I think about it maybe I do pronounce my a more centrally than frontal...)

All those "r"s you commented on sound nothing like any English r I've ever heard spoken.  If you really want I can provide a purposely mispronounced counter-example, but I'm just not seeing it.

As for your ʊ vs u, according to anything I've seen from Frommer, both seem to be acceptable - he lists 7 vowels, but 8 phonetics, with "u" getting both ʊ and u.

That's what I hear when I listen back to them again.  I'm not trying to be defensive here, I'm trying to understand what you're saying if I am indeed pronouncing them wrong.  Perhaps the difference is you're listening with more an ear towards perfection?
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

omängum fra'uti

Quote from: Ftiafpi on January 07, 2010, 04:39:21 PM
I use just a simple USB microphone so I get a little better quality than a headset but not much more. I do some amature voice acting so sometime in the very near future I'm going to get a new mic and a pop filter (though I just realized that might filter the edjectives, we'll see) and possibly a pre-amp but, yes, for now I just use a regular microphone.

I do however run the audio through a noise filter to remove any background hiss and ambient noise.
If my understanding of the purpose/function of a pop filter is correct, it's just to keep the burst of air from plosives (Or ejectives) from causing distortion by moving the microphone through the air turbulence rather than vibrations...  So I don't see how that would filter out the sound from ejectives any more than turning your head away from someone as you talk to them would keep them from hearing the ejectives.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Ftiafpi

Dialog: I'll look these over when I get home (and on the car ride home since I have them on my mp3 player now) and see what I come up with. I personally didn't notice anything but I haven't gone over Steven's words that much since I was in a rush to get them up last night. If I find something obviously wrong I'll change it but otherwise I'll leave them as is until we come to a consensus.

Pop filter: Yeah, you're right, it should work fine. I also need a good microphone cover to help reduce ambient background hiss. I'll get those as soon as I get paid next week.

Ftiafpi

#44
Alright, after looking over these for an hour I found a bunch of errors in mine:


  • General edits to improve audio quality on English-Na'vi-English files
  • Apxa to better enunciate the edjective
  • Eltu Si to sound more natural and less forced.
  • Feku has been fixed (wouldn't download)
  • Hapxì fixed pronunciation of the ì and the edjective.
  • Irayo fixed pronunciation of the a
  • Kaltxì fixed pronunciation of the ì
  • Kxanì fixed pronunciation of the ì
  • Lahe has been redone
  • Makto has been redone
  • Munge has been redone
  • Muntxa fixed edjective
  • Na'vi fixed glottal stop
  • Pxay has been redone
  • Rutxe fixed edjective and ending "e"
  • Sìronsem fixed the "e"
  • Tseng minor change on "ts"
  • Txìng minor change on "ng"

As far as I can tell though everything in Steven's are correct. His /r/ sounds fine and I didn't hear any of the noted problems so I have left his as they were.

Eyaye Tskxe

Thanks a ton for doing this. The written dictionary is awesome, the grammar sheets are great, but neither really show me the correct way of saying the language. I've been leaving this on repeat as I fall asleep, just to hear the right sounds (It worked in the Dexter's Laboratory cartoons, so why not in real life?  ;)).

Irayo!

Ftiafpi

Quote from: Eyaye Tskxe on January 07, 2010, 07:03:30 PM
Thanks a ton for doing this. The written dictionary is awesome, the grammar sheets are great, but neither really show me the correct way of saying the language. I've been leaving this on repeat as I fall asleep, just to hear the right sounds (It worked in the Dexter's Laboratory cartoons, so why not in real life?  ;)).

Irayo!

You're welcome, the updates just got applied right now by the way so if you just downloaded it...um, download it again :P

Txen Seri Unil

Kaltxi!

Hey Ftiafpi could you throw a version number on the end of the zip files so we know when you update? Just a simple "1", "2", etc would be swell. Thanks again!

Eywa ngahu,
Raw


Old name: Rawveggie. Upgraded to Na'vi name.

Txen Seri Unil = Awake + Make (present continuing tense) + Dream = Waking Dream

"The words are like stones in my heart." -Jake Sully
(Aylì'u lu na tskxe mì oeyä txe'lan. - Na'vi translation from script)

Nume fpi sänume

hmm I was just about to ask for the same thing :P Knowing how "out of date" my version is would be useful :)

Ftiafpi

Sure thing, here are the following version format:

V1.23

V: version
1: Indicates batch version, each time a large amount of new dialog is added this will go up by 1
2: Indicates a major revision to one or more existing dialog file (download recommended for proper understanding)
3: Indicates a minor revision to one or more existing dialog (download not totally necessary for proper understanding)

Txen Seri Unil

Quote from: Ftiafpi on January 07, 2010, 08:58:47 PM
Sure thing, here are the following version format:

V1.23

V: version
1: Indicates batch version, each time a large amount of new dialog is added this will go up by 1
2: Indicates a major revision to one or more existing dialog file (download recommended for proper understanding)
3: Indicates a minor revision to one or more existing dialog (download not totally necessary for proper understanding)

That rocks! Irayo!

Can you edit your first post with this? Unless you have already... :)

Eywa ngahu,
Raw


Old name: Rawveggie. Upgraded to Na'vi name.

Txen Seri Unil = Awake + Make (present continuing tense) + Dream = Waking Dream

"The words are like stones in my heart." -Jake Sully
(Aylì'u lu na tskxe mì oeyä txe'lan. - Na'vi translation from script)

Ftiafpi

Another batch, I'm quite confident that these are correct so I went ahead and added them to the dialog collections but please review them:

You can access individual sound files from this batch here: http://ia341340.us.archive.org/1/items/NaviBatch2/


Updated the dialog collection to V2.00

kewnya txamew'itan

#52
Quote from: omängum fra'uti on January 07, 2010, 04:53:45 PM
Quote from: kawng mungeyu on January 07, 2010, 04:18:03 PM
the audio dictionary is very impressive.

That said we have to make sure that this is perfect so as not to corrupt newcomers and so I'm trying to find any mistakes, so far I've found the following: the clip for Na'vi seems to be being pronounced Nä'vi. Also nari has an English r not an alveolar flap. In the apxa clip the first "a" sounds a bit like a "ä" and the ejective is only just ejected (it's good, not quite as in your face as mine but some people might miss it and this that a px is a p). Atan is being pronounced with "ä"s not "a"s. fkeu is being pronounced with a [ ʊ ] in between the f and k, also, should this be fkew and therefore pronounced [ fkɛʊ ] not [ fkɛ.u ]?

In hufwe the u is lax when it should not be. Kaltxì is definitely being pronounced kältxì. Like nari, menari has an English r not an alveolar flap. In Mikyun the u is lax being and is a [ ʊ ] not a [ u ]. Mokri seems to have an English r although I'm less sure of this than of the other rs. Munge is being pronounced mune, the ng has been replaced with n. Muntxa is being pronounced as if it ends in ä not a. Na'rìng is said with an English r.

I only have time to check the first half now, I'll do the others later. If you want I can record so words and send them to you as well.

This is probably going to come across as defensive but I really don't mean it that way, but I'm just not hearing that in the clips I recorded.  (Nari, menari, atan, hufwe, mokri, na'rìng)

The only one I can somewhat hear as being a little off is atan, but I wouldn't call that the æ of the Na'vi ä but more on the side of a that is AWAY from ä not closer to it...  More like ɐ or maybe ɑ than æ if anything.  (Unless you're referring to the more central IPA sound ä, in which case that I could see, and would go with it sounding more like ɐ like I hear...  And as I think about it maybe I do pronounce my a more centrally than frontal...)

All those "r"s you commented on sound nothing like any English r I've ever heard spoken.  If you really want I can provide a purposely mispronounced counter-example, but I'm just not seeing it.

As for your ʊ vs u, according to anything I've seen from Frommer, both seem to be acceptable - he lists 7 vowels, but 8 phonetics, with "u" getting both ʊ and u.

That's what I hear when I listen back to them again.  I'm not trying to be defensive here, I'm trying to understand what you're saying if I am indeed pronouncing them wrong.  Perhaps the difference is you're listening with more an ear towards perfection?

With the a in atan, it still sounds a bit like a Na'vi ä to me, I'll send you a clip of me saying both, might be more productive than this just going back and forth.

Again, with the r I'm not hearing a flap. It may not quite be an English r but it still sounds more like one than a Na'vi one.

Ok so the us are fine.

Quote from: Ftiafpi on January 07, 2010, 06:24:53 PM
Alright, after looking over these for an hour I found a bunch of errors in mine:


  • General edits to improve audio quality on English-Na'vi-English files
  • Apxa to better enunciate the edjective
  • Eltu Si to sound more natural and less forced.
  • Feku has been fixed (wouldn't download)
  • Hapxì fixed pronunciation of the ì and the edjective.
  • Irayo fixed pronunciation of the a
  • Kaltxì fixed pronunciation of the ì
  • Kxanì fixed pronunciation of the ì
  • Lahe has been redone
  • Makto has been redone
  • Munge has been redone
  • Muntxa fixed edjective
  • Na'vi fixed glottal stop
  • Pxay has been redone
  • Rutxe fixed edjective and ending "e"
  • Sìronsem fixed the "e"
  • Tseng minor change on "ts"
  • Txìng minor change on "ng"

As far as I can tell though everything in Steven's are correct. His /r/ sounds fine and I didn't hear any of the noted problems so I have left his as they were.

are these edits also in the dictionary or just in the zip file.




second half of the dictionary


  • ngawng is pretty close to just having a "n" at the start but then even Neytiri did that occasionally.
  • nìtxan is being pronounced with an "i" not an "ì"
  • rikx doesn't seem to be flapped
  • rina' doesn't seem to be flapped
  • rutxe doesn't seem to be flapped
  • seyri has a nicely flapped r but just gets an extra vowel in first
  • in sìlronsem the o is being pronounced as if it were a Na'vi a and I'm not sure if it was flapped
  • swirä has a very nicely flapped r
  • syaw is being pronounced as if there was an e in front of the y
  • takuk is being pronounced with äs not as.
  • tangek has the k cut off
  • terkup is missing the p and the r seems to be being voiced at the back, definitely no alveolar flap (was the person who did this one French/native French speaker?)
  • tìkawng is being pronounced with a strongly voiced t, some people might confuse it with tx
  • tirea doesn't seem to be very flappy
  • tirol, as above
  • tokx is pronouncing the o like the letter not the sound it's meant to carry (this one should work for British English speakers but probably no Americans) like the second o in robot
  • tompa is ending ä not a
  • tseng is being pronounced with a glottal stop before the e (sort of like some weird ejective ts)

Those seem to be all the 'mistakes' I can find, I've still got half an hour before school so I'll record as many of the relevant audio clips as I can.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

Taronyu

Quote from: kawng mungeyu on January 08, 2010, 02:31:36 AM
are these edits also in the dictionary or just in the zip file.

I have edited the dictionary file. yes. It would be best to check that thread, not just here.

kewnya txamew'itan

#54
ok, I'll check that when I get back from school.

I've also recorded my explanations as to why I think the pronounciation isn't quite perfect, it's in the attachment. The alveolar flap file and the atan file are both in response to omägum fra'uti whilst the other one just covers the ones I thought weren't right in the second half of the dictionary.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

omängum fra'uti

Maybe I'm just being thick and hearing what I think it sounds like rather than what it actually sounds like, but I played them back to back and I had to really listen to tell any difference on atan.  My first a (Atan) is a little bit more closed than it should be, but still nothing like ä...  Played between both your ätän and atan, it sounded more like the second one.  The second a (atAn) sounded exactly like yours to my ears.  On the rest, I'm still not seeing how you don't hear a flap, the only one I can MAYBE see is mokri, and that's only because it comes right after another consonant so the sound isn't as distinctly flappy.

On the other hand, your flap on na'rìng seemed a little over-exaggerated, to the point that it was a actually a short trill.  And I hear more of a flap in my menari than in yours.

So I'm still not seeing it...  I'm not trying to be stubborn, just trying to understand what I'm not hearing here.

Here is the clip I made to do side by side comparison.

Aside from that listening to the third sample you gave...  (Just on the ones I'd recorded)
In your "ngawng" I'm hearing "ngäwng", and again I'm not hearing the lack of ng on the end of mine...
The first time you say "rina'" I once again hear the trill there "rrina"
Tsyal, again not hearing this extra vowel, and in yours I'm hearing "Tsyäl"
Tangek...  It isn't cut off, that's how it's supposed to sound.  You're actually mispronouncing it as plosives in the final position are unreleased.  (From the original article we got the pronunciation rules from: Voiceless stops are unaspirated. In final position they are unreleased.)
Not sure if terkup was the same deal, as that wasn't my recording, but again you're mispronouncing it by releasing the final consonant.
Tìkawng, yeah that t is way too strong, I'm still working on unaspirated "t" there, a lifetime of speaking English is hard to fight.  Though again I'm hearing ä in there from you.
I'm also going to strongly disagree with your pronunciation of "tokx" based on the pronunciation sample of "o" on Wikipedia...  So that may or may not be accurate.  However, to me yours actually sounds more like takx to my ears.  You even say "takx not tokx" then proceed to say "ngaru lu fpom srak" and you pronounce the o in fpom identically to how you pronounced it in your example of how NOT to pronounce "tokx".

There were a few others, but it was all the same general thing...  Your idea of what the vowels should sound like seems to be different than my idea, and different than what the sounds given in Wikipedia's various vowel sound samples are.  Not only that, you seem to disagree with yourself at different times.

So now, I'm really confused...
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Ftiafpi

#56
Quote from: kawng mungeyu on January 08, 2010, 02:31:36 AM
are these edits also in the dictionary or just in the zip file.
Yes, any edit to any sound file will automatically be reflected in all documents that use it (except for irongamers flashcard system).

Quotein sìlronsem the o is being pronounced as if it were a Na'vi a and I'm not sure if it was flapped
I agree, I'll fix this

Quotengawng missing the ng at the start
It's subtle but I would agree, I'll change this but it's so close I don't think the original is "wrong".

Quoteterkup is missing the p and the r seems to be being voiced at the back, definitely no alveolar flap (was the person who did this one French/native French speaker?)
The p is unreleased. I agree though, the r is the wrong r, I'll fix this. (I'm a native English speaker but I took 2 years of French back in high school).

Quoteseyri has a nicely flapped r but just gets an extra vowel in first
Not hearing an extra vowel, I hear "ss-eh-j-/r/-ee"

QuoteTìkawng, yeah that t is way too strong, I'm still working on unaspirated "t" there
I'll fix this.

Quotesyaw is being pronounced as if there was an e in front of the y
Bah, there I go adding extra e's, it will be fixed.

Quotetakuk is being pronounced with äs not as.
Not to me, it sounds just like the a in father

Quotetseng is being pronounced with a glottal stop before the e (sort of like some weird ejective ts)
Whoops, I had actually fixed that but I guess the old version of the file got out, this will be fixed.

Quotenìtxan is being pronounced with an "i" not an "ì"
I agree, it will be fixed.

QuoteSo I'm still not seeing it...  I'm not trying to be stubborn, just trying to understand what I'm not hearing here.
I agree, I hear a flapped /r/ in all of Steven's files. Some of them aren't exaggerated, and perhaps they should be, but I personally feel that they're, more or less, spot on.

In any case, this is good, we should never take anything for granted. We should probably get a third opinion on all this if we continue to get stuck on some words, get someone like William or whoever to come in here and verify many of these.

Nume fpi sänume

#57
I just wanted to let you all know that this is now the item I'm directing people towards to learn how to pronounce it. There are so many tools in here to help people, and I've even increased my vocabulary and pronunciation because of it. Whoops, i totally thought i was in the thread for Na'vi Language Tool. Oh well, this is a very big part of that tool :) so still, thanks lol

kewnya txamew'itan

Irayo ma omängum. I hadn't realised they were meant to be unreleased in the final position. In that case I retract the statments regading terkup and tangek although then you need to redo takuk as that has the final k aspirated.

With the alveolar flap, I do sometimes accidentally trill it (in this case it may have been because I was a bit stressed about walking to school for my English exam that I hadn't revised for) but in general not as much as I did here. In general my flaps sound like the first one in the wikipedia clip for the flap http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Alveolar_tap.ogg. None of the other rs seem to fit what I'm hearing but then neither does my normal r (which is more like the second r in the wiki clip). I think I must be flapping my rs normally and then exaggerating the flap when it needs to be flapped. In that case I drop the r comments.

With Atan and the as, I just listened to the two clips on wikipedia and I think I was doing a [ aː ] not a [ a ] although that shouldn't make it sound like an ä.

And no, you don't sound stubborn.

As for the rest of the list, with ngawng it was the first ng that sounded like n.

It was tseng not tsyal that sounded like it had an extra syllable. It's as if you had the English word cats 'eng (with being nìna'vi).

As for tìkawng and the unaspirated-ness, the example everyone seems to be giving for glottal stops nowadays (latin) seems a good example of it being unaspirated, when I at least (most of these examples I give may not hold true for non-British English speakers) say it, I get what I think is an unaspirated t.

As for tokx, I was going fo the open-mid back rounded vowel which, even though it differs from the language log IPA seems closer (to me at least) to Frommer's pronounciation of fpom, even though he wrote the post, this forum's already established that his use of the IPA is not always perfect and so I think his actual pronounciation is more important than the IPA he gives. I couldn't find this takx that I apparently said although that could be me hearing what I want to hear.

Again, not sure where I disagreed with myself that I didn't then correct myself (I occasionally miss the dots on the ä first time I read it but usually reallise after I've said it). Although I did spot one mistake I made, I said that it should be kaltxi not kaltxì but I meant the other way round.


ma Ftiapi, I've probably got those wrong so don't worry about it, I'll go and correct my posts.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

Ftiafpi

#59
Quote from: kawng mungeyu on January 08, 2010, 11:01:31 AM
In that case I retract the statments regading terkup and tangek although then you need to redo takuk as that has the final k aspirated.
Whoops, it will be fixed.

QuoteIt was tseng not tsyal that sounded like it had an extra syllable. It's as if you had the English word cats 'eng (with being nìna'vi).
I agree with this, it will be fixed.

Quote from: Nume fpi sänume on January 08, 2010, 10:59:56 AM
Whoops, i totally thought i was in the thread for Na'vi Language Tool. Oh well, this is a very big part of that tool :) so still, thanks lol
Hehe, and here I was just about to write this big thank you thing...well, none for you! :P
(Thanks, and yes, that tool is amazing and definitely should be given to beginners)