Na'vi spoken dialog

[kewnya txamew'itan]

ok, don't want to lead the project astray by assuming I'm always right.

That said, I'm sticking to my guns with the o sound being [ ɔ ] not [ o ]. I've attached an audio clip with Frommer saying "fpom" then me saying "fpom", lastly I have the wikipedia clip for [ ɔ ].

[omängum fra'uti]

Oh no, I actually heard you say fpom correct.  That's where I say you're disagreeing with yourself...  The o in fpom, even yours, sounds like the "o" in "coat".  Frommers does too.  And so does my "tokx" and your example of my "tokx".  Your example of the "correct" pronunciation of "tokx" is the only one I hear the "o" in "cot".  I lined up your "correct" pronunciation of tokx followed by your "fpom", your "incorrect" tokx, frommers "fpom" from his NPR interview and my "tokx".  To my hear I'm hearing one vowel (The o in cot) followed by 4 other vowels (The o in coat).  Comparison clip attached.

[Ftiafpi]

The first "correct" pronunciation of tokx sounds like t'-aw-k' but from my understanding it should be t'-ow-k', just like the o in your fpom. I think omängum fra'uti has it right.

[omängum fra'uti]

On an unrelated note, where on earth did people get those vowel sounds for Wikipedia?  I swear they don't sound like a person pronouncing it, they sound like an experiment I remember seeing at the Exploratorium in San Francisco where they had a billows hooked up to a hose you could move between various "mouth shapes" in acrylic, then when you pressed on it, it would just produce a vibration which would be modified by the simulated mouth shape to sound like a vowel.

[kewnya txamew'itan]

the vowel sounds really aren't that great are they?

Oh no, I actually heard you say fpom correct.  That's where I say you're disagreeing with yourself...  The o in fpom, even yours, sounds like the "o" in "coat".  Frommers does too.  And so does my "tokx" and your example of my "tokx".  Your example of the "correct" pronunciation of "tokx" is the only one I hear the "o" in "cot".  I lined up your "correct" pronunciation of tokx followed by your "fpom", your "incorrect" tokx, frommers "fpom" from his NPR interview and my "tokx".  To my hear I'm hearing one vowel (The o in cot) followed by 4 other vowels (The o in coat).  Comparison clip attached.

I'm hearing cot, cot, coat, cot, coat with just the tokxs having the coat sound. Was that first tokx the one I was saying was correct or that was meant to sound like yours?

[omängum fra'uti]

Yes, they are in exactly the order I listed them in.  And... I'm still not hearing the "cot" in any of Frommer's.

Listen to the dialog from http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/magazine/06FOB-onlanguage-t.html?_r=1

t<arm>ok - sounds like coat to me at about 3s
fo - again sounds like coat to me just after 8s
sp<iv>ang-ko? - once again coat at around 11s

To be fair on that last one, I'm also hearing the "coat" o when he says "livu" at the end so that one could really be a mispronunciation or me mis-hearing.  But tarmok and fo seem like the correct word and also sound like the same o.

About Frommer's use of IPA, it may or may not be perfect (I don't recall that specific discussion) but I see no precedence for any of his other vowel sounds to be other than as he transcribed them, and as he transcribed them is what I hear in what he says.

[Ftiafpi]

Yes, they are in exactly the order I listed them in.  And... I'm still not hearing the "cot" in any of Frommer's.

Listen to the dialog from http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/magazine/06FOB-onlanguage-t.html?_r=1

t<arm>ok - sounds like coat to me at about 3s
fo - again sounds like coat to me just after 8s
sp<iv>ang-ko? - once again coat at around 11s

To be fair on that last one, I'm also hearing the "coat" o when he says "livu" at the end so that one could really be a mispronunciation or me mis-hearing.  But tarmok and fo seem like the correct word and also sound like the same o.

About Frommer's use of IPA, it may or may not be perfect (I don't recall that specific discussion) but I see no precedence for any of his other vowel sounds to be other than as he transcribed them, and as he transcribed them is what I hear in what he says.

Yeah, some good examples there and I, once again, agree with you. Especially on the t<arm>ok, sounds like the o in coat or mow.

[Ftiafpi]

Updates!

Version updated to V2.10

Change list:

• Sìlronsem, to better include a /r/ and improved pronunciation
• Syaw, removed extra 'e' sound
• Terkup, fixed /r/
• Tseng, removed weird glottal stop
• Ngawng, emphasized beginning 'ng'
• Tìkawng, added unaspirated t
• Takuk, fixed unaspirated and unreleased k's
• Nìtxan, changed i to ì
• Eltu Si, removed some of the extra emphases on si
• 'Ampi, improved audio quality
• Mawey, changed ä to a
• Ikran, changed /r/ slightly

[Payoang]

I've added links to the mp3s on the main LearnNavi Vocab section. Sticky-ing thread for awesomeness. I'll try to keep up with adding new mp3s to the live site.

[omängum fra'uti]

Working on recording my next batch of around 50 words, after studying up my correct vowel pronunciations.  (Mainly the a, and closing the u up a little more.)

There's probably going to be some duplicates as I'm just doing words from a list without specifically picking out what has not been done already.  Feel free to take mine or keep the existing in such cases.

[Ftiafpi]

Working on recording my next batch of around 50 words, after studying up my correct vowel pronunciations.  (Mainly the a, and closing the u up a little more.)

There's probably going to be some duplicates as I'm just doing words from a list without specifically picking out what has not been done already.  Feel free to take mine or keep the existing in such cases.

Awesome! I look forward to them.

[kewnya txamew'itan]

Yes, they are in exactly the order I listed them in.  And... I'm still not hearing the "cot" in any of Frommer's.

Listen to the dialog from http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/magazine/06FOB-onlanguage-t.html?_r=1

t<arm>ok - sounds like coat to me at about 3s
fo - again sounds like coat to me just after 8s
sp<iv>ang-ko? - once again coat at around 11s

To be fair on that last one, I'm also hearing the "coat" o when he says "livu" at the end so that one could really be a mispronunciation or me mis-hearing.  But tarmok and fo seem like the correct word and also sound like the same o.

About Frommer's use of IPA, it may or may not be perfect (I don't recall that specific discussion) but I see no precedence for any of his other vowel sounds to be other than as he transcribed them, and as he transcribed them is what I hear in what he says.

In that clip he's definitely making a coat sound.

As for us hearing my clip differently, might it be because I'm thinking of it from a British English point of view possibly, because I don't see this going anywhere useful.

[Ftiafpi]

As for us hearing my clip differently, might it be because I'm thinking of it from a British English point of view possibly, because I don't see this going anywhere useful.

Agree to disagree?

[Nume fpi sänume]

Good idea, both of you. 

[kewnya txamew'itan]

it's probably best until we get some slower and cleaner clips from Frommer.

[Shyiox]

Is that "o" realy such a  big problem?  

For me is an "o" an "o" and not an "oa" or "ou" or "oh"  

And im realy looking forwards to the next SpokenNavi-Version  

Eywa ngahu - Shyiox

PS: Can it be that we germans have it easyer with the "o" ?  

[Ftiafpi]

Is that "o" realy such a  big problem?  

For me is an "o" an "o" and not an "oa" or "ou" or "oh"  

And im realy looking forwards to the next SpokenNavi-Version  

Eywa ngahu - Shyiox

PS: Can it be that we germans have it easyer with the "o" ?  

I know you're joking but it does make a very big difference. This will be the first place people go to learn how to pronounce Na'vi so it has to be 100% right or we will be starting A LOT of bad habits that will be hard to erase.

That said, I would imagine that, yes, a German speaker would have an easier time with the o (and the trilled r's).

[Ftiafpi]

Added a new (small) batch of words:

• 'Awkx
• Aynga
• Eyk
• Hrrap
• Ke'u
• Kllkxem
• Kxam
• Kxll
• Muiä
• Nguway
• Omum

They can be accessed here for review: http://ia341307.us.archive.org/2/items/NaviBatch3/

Updated the dialog collection to V2.50

[Ftiafpi]

Updates:

• Rikx, change r to Na'vi /r/
• ätxäle, removed incorrect k after edjective
• Hum, volume increased
• Kewong, changed k to unaspirated and changed 'ou' to 'ow'
• Terkup, improved /r/ and general pronunciation.
• Muiä, fixed pronunciation
• Kxll, fixed /ll/

Updated the dialog collection to V2.60

[tsrräfkxätu]

Hey Ftiafpi,


Following our discussion in this thread, I am now posting my comments/suggestions with respect to your talking dictionary project. But first, there are a few things to consider.

1. I am basing my observations on Seabass's vocab, be it correct or otherwise. If there is a more recent/appropriate source to consider, please point me to it!

2. Taronyu has raised some concerns regarding the completeness of the sound inventory Dr. Frommer has provided us with, particularly with respect to certain allophonic variations. I am not familiar with any such rule, and thus cannot consider it, which might lead me to the wrong conclusion at times. Any information regarding or attestations evidencing those changes would be welcome!

3. Obviously, I don't speak Na'vi, and I don't know how a certain word our sound needs to be produced or stressed in Na'vi any more than any of you here. However, I have good ears, and I am familiar with IPA, so I can point out where a sound as produced by the speaker does not exactly correspond to the IPA standard. This may or may not get us any closer to speaking Na'vi right.


With that out of the way, welcome to the nitpicking hell of an IPA-fascist!


1. 'ampi: the [ʔ] is not uttered at all. There should be a glottal "puff" at the beginning of the next sound. Compare uh-huh and anonymous for example, and notice the difference in their first sounds due to the closure in your throat. The [a] is more open and more frontal than what can be heard here. What you do is more like when the dentist asks you to say "Ah", i.e. the sound that can be heard in far. Here's a way to get it right: open your mouth big, like you are trying to bite a thick sub and then "sing" the first sound of aye and hold it without going into the [j]. Practice it until you can remember this position: this is how the [a] is produced. Finally, remember not to aspirate your [p/t/k]s - it's not too bad here, but still audible - think of the [p] in spill not in pill. One way to check this is by holding the back of your hand a few inches in front of your mouth, so you can feel the wind as you speak. Make sure that your Na'vi [p/t/k]s (as well as their ejective versions [p'/t'/k']) don't produce more gust of air than their voiced counterparts [b/d/g].


[...posted to make sure that the whole thing is not lost...WiP]