Author Topic: Na'vi for dummies  (Read 3599 times)

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Offline tsmukan ftu Eywa

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Na'vi for dummies
« on: January 16, 2010, 10:39:27 am »
Na'vi for dummies would be a great book. :D It can be a non profit sell to all go to helping this site grow what do you think out there?
NEYTIRI
      I am with you now, Jake. We are mated for
      life.

            JAKE
      We are?

            NEYTIRI
      Yes. It is our way.
         (innocently)
      Oh. I forgot to tell?

Offline falconmick

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2010, 11:51:29 am »
any funds even to cover the cost of production of the book would be theft as this sight doesn't have any ownership of the movie.

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2010, 01:15:42 pm »
Not necessarily, as long as it was in reference ONLY to the language and not to the movie I don't believe it would be under Fox's copyright of the movie. Just like I could take words from a dictionary and use them to teach you how to speak English would not violate the copyright of the publisher of the original dictionary.

Offline Suteyä Hawnuyu

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2010, 06:46:31 pm »
Not necessarily, as long as it was in reference ONLY to the language and not to the movie I don't believe it would be under Fox's copyright of the movie. Just like I could take words from a dictionary and use them to teach you how to speak English would not violate the copyright of the publisher of the original dictionary.

The english language itself is not copyrighted. Na'vi is.
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Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2010, 10:27:20 pm »
Not necessarily, as long as it was in reference ONLY to the language and not to the movie I don't believe it would be under Fox's copyright of the movie. Just like I could take words from a dictionary and use them to teach you how to speak English would not violate the copyright of the publisher of the original dictionary.

The english language itself is not copyrighted. Na'vi is.

Yeah, this prompted me to read a little more about it and yes, it seems like we couldn't do anything with the language unfortunately unlike what I though. However, it would certainly be feasible to give Fox royalties to use the language and make such a book.

Offline Suteyä Hawnuyu

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2010, 11:17:32 pm »
Not necessarily, as long as it was in reference ONLY to the language and not to the movie I don't believe it would be under Fox's copyright of the movie. Just like I could take words from a dictionary and use them to teach you how to speak English would not violate the copyright of the publisher of the original dictionary.

The english language itself is not copyrighted. Na'vi is.

Yeah, this prompted me to read a little more about it and yes, it seems like we couldn't do anything with the language unfortunately unlike what I though. However, it would certainly be feasible to give Fox royalties to use the language and make such a book.

Indeed, and a proposition like the one you described has my full support.  :)
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Offline Nume fpi sänume

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2010, 12:33:55 am »
Keep us updated on any progress. I'll leave this thread open, but if it picks up useless spam, I will lock it.

Offline falconmick

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2010, 02:17:52 am »
Well you can try, but any book created would most likely be created by fox as If they want more money they might aswell make it them selves seings though The own the language!

Offline Toiyari Angkran

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2010, 03:28:13 am »
Hm.. I wonder is there is a '_______ for dummies' website or something.

Like where they take in ideas and create the books.

-~- How can copyright a language? :-\ -~-
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Offline Kaltxì Palulukan!

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2010, 03:58:15 am »
Hm.. I wonder is there is a '_______ for dummies' website or something.

Like where they take in ideas and create the books.

-~- How can copyright a language? :-\ -~-

The language is a complete fabrication--an articifical (human made in a corporate environment to fill a commercial purpose) communication process. Anything you specifically create is automatically copyrighted to you. Additionally, if you have as many lawyers on retainer as FOX, you can do almost anything you like. No one can copyright a language that has evolved organically, but specifically made up ones are the property of their creators, or in this case, as the language was most likely a "work for hire" project where Fromer was contracted to commission a language.

But, I would stay away from the "___ for Dummies" concept, and DEFINITELY away from any thoughts of charging a penny (and yes, that means donations as well) for ANY na'vi language instruction. FOX is in business to make money, and they are very good at it. They must scan this site occasionally (some lower eschelon managerial type) to ensure we are not violating terms and conditions.

What is possible however, is exactly what we are doing. The na'vi dictionary, word lists, and my fun activity book to help people learn Na'vi are all free and carefully avoid stepping on FOX's profit margins. In fact, these may become (eventually) the basis for "official corporate" language instruction, but that requires a more extensive vocabulary to work with, a LOT of creativity on our parts (which is why I am always posing new goofy ideas, like Na'vi karaokee and crossword puzzles), and the grace of some visionary genius at FOX.

I apologize for the delay in my activity book being posted, but due to teh computer crash I lost everything I had, including my professional layout software. I have been working everythingout on paper (actual pencil and paper) these past few days, and am entering them into the computer. I am forced to work with Word (ugh!--NOT a layout program) and Photpshop. But I should have goodiess for everyon by V-Day, and it will be emblazoned with the words "NOT FOR SALE" (except by FOX, if they demand it). Hopefully it will help make the first few weeks of learning Na'vi much more fun and easy, and will serve as a primer for the more advanced documents we already have.

 :)
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Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2010, 02:04:09 pm »
-~- How can copyright a language? :-\ -~-

The language is a complete fabrication--an articifical (human made in a corporate environment to fill a commercial purpose) communication process. Anything you specifically create is automatically copyrighted to you.

Facts cannot be copyrighted, even made-up facts.  Languages cannot be copyrighted, even made-up languages like Klingon and Na'vi.  A Na'vi dictionary can be copyrighted, but the facts of what the words mean cannot.  The dictionary would be subject to a special kind of copyright known as a "compilation copyright", but that only protects the selection of the words to include and their arrangement and presentation, and only to the degree that the selection, arrangement, and presentation are creative and original.

See here.

There would be trademark issues with anything that used the word "Na'vi" in its title or description.  Note: trademark, not copyright.  Paramount's control over Klingon is based on trademark issues; Fox's control over Na'vi would use the same basis.

No one can copyright a language that has evolved organically, but specifically made up ones are the property of their creators

This theory has never been tested in a court, and it runs counter to legal precendent established in Feist v. Rural.  It is probably incorrect.

Additionally, if you have as many lawyers on retainer as FOX, you can do almost anything you like.

That's perhaps closest to the truth, but being able to spend money on lawyers doesn't make you legally in the right; it just allows you to intimidate people who don't have the necessary resources to fight you, even if they would eventually win if they did.  The creator of Loglan tried to claim copyright ownership of the entire language, including control over its use.  The threat of legal action was enough to persuade would-be Loglan reformers to abandon Loglan and start a new language (Lojban), which was essentially just a relexification of Loglan.  They did this not because he was legally correct in his claims, but because it was easier to start over than worry about lawsuits.  The Loglan creator eventually did file a lawsuit, but it was over trademarks, not copyright, and he lost anyway.

What is possible however, is exactly what we are doing. The na'vi dictionary, word lists, and my fun activity book to help people learn Na'vi are all free and carefully avoid stepping on FOX's profit margins.

Be very aware that Fox could attempt to pursue trademark claims against anything that uses the word "Na'vi" - including the website, the dictionaries, and your activity book.  The fact that they are free doesn't change that.  If Fox decided that the only "Learn Na'vi" site should be a for-pay site under their control, you can be damn sure that Seabass would be getting a cease-and-desist letter, or perhaps an offer to become the official site (best-case scenario! :) ).  I don't know how well their claims would stand up in court, but I doubt that Seabass, Taronyu, or you would want to become a test case.

  - Eri

Offline Eight

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2010, 02:08:36 pm »
With years of copyright arguments etc. behind me, I've learned one thing:

Don't poke the bear. :)

Offline Kaltxì Palulukan!

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2010, 04:03:42 pm »
-~- How can copyright a language? :-\ -~-

The language is a complete fabrication--an articifical (human made in a corporate environment to fill a commercial purpose) communication process. Anything you specifically create is automatically copyrighted to you.

Facts cannot be copyrighted, even made-up facts.  Languages cannot be copyrighted, even made-up languages like Klingon and Na'vi.  A Na'vi dictionary can be copyrighted, but the facts of what the words mean cannot.  The dictionary would be subject to a special kind of copyright known as a "compilation copyright", but that only protects the selection of the words to include and their arrangement and presentation, and only to the degree that the selection, arrangement, and presentation are creative and original.

See here.

There would be trademark issues with anything that used the word "Na'vi" in its title or description.  Note: trademark, not copyright.  Paramount's control over Klingon is based on trademark issues; Fox's control over Na'vi would use the same basis.

No one can copyright a language that has evolved organically, but specifically made up ones are the property of their creators

This theory has never been tested in a court, and it runs counter to legal precendent established in Feist v. Rural.  It is probably incorrect.

Additionally, if you have as many lawyers on retainer as FOX, you can do almost anything you like.

That's perhaps closest to the truth, but being able to spend money on lawyers doesn't make you legally in the right; it just allows you to intimidate people who don't have the necessary resources to fight you, even if they would eventually win if they did.  The creator of Loglan tried to claim copyright ownership of the entire language, including control over its use.  The threat of legal action was enough to persuade would-be Loglan reformers to abandon Loglan and start a new language (Lojban), which was essentially just a relexification of Loglan.  They did this not because he was legally correct in his claims, but because it was easier to start over than worry about lawsuits.  The Loglan creator eventually did file a lawsuit, but it was over trademarks, not copyright, and he lost anyway.

What is possible however, is exactly what we are doing. The na'vi dictionary, word lists, and my fun activity book to help people learn Na'vi are all free and carefully avoid stepping on FOX's profit margins.

Be very aware that Fox could attempt to pursue trademark claims against anything that uses the word "Na'vi" - including the website, the dictionaries, and your activity book.  The fact that they are free doesn't change that.  If Fox decided that the only "Learn Na'vi" site should be a for-pay site under their control, you can be damn sure that Seabass would be getting a cease-and-desist letter, or perhaps an offer to become the official site (best-case scenario! :) ).  I don't know how well their claims would stand up in court, but I doubt that Seabass, Taronyu, or you would want to become a test case.

  - Eri


OMFG you are smart! (I am humbled by your txan wisdom.)
World's first na'vi podcast is here: http://media.podcastingmanager.com/9/0/7/3/4/253192-243709/Media/ATA-1.mp3

New Na'vi FUN activity book is here: Please click here to download your own (free) copy! I help you omum Na'vi! :-)

LOVE YOUR VEGGIES! Don't EAT them!     ----     Before Apollo there was Gaia.

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Offline Kaltxì Palulukan!

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2010, 04:04:31 pm »
With years of copyright arguments etc. behind me, I've learned one thing:

Don't poke the bear. :)

LOLOL!!!  ;D ;D ;D

(I needed to read that after the butchering I just took)
World's first na'vi podcast is here: http://media.podcastingmanager.com/9/0/7/3/4/253192-243709/Media/ATA-1.mp3

New Na'vi FUN activity book is here: Please click here to download your own (free) copy! I help you omum Na'vi! :-)

LOVE YOUR VEGGIES! Don't EAT them!     ----     Before Apollo there was Gaia.

[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b31

Offline tsmukan ftu Eywa

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2010, 05:10:54 pm »
Ok, The language is copy written but only if we are making a profit from it. A good example is WoW. you can get private servers for it... copy wright? No. Only if you damage the company's income, or you are stealing there copy wright for your own gain. maple story, Left for dead (2), or even the fact that we use Na'vi in anything. So what we do is make a Na'vi for dummies book and it will all be non-profit as I said earlier.
NEYTIRI
      I am with you now, Jake. We are mated for
      life.

            JAKE
      We are?

            NEYTIRI
      Yes. It is our way.
         (innocently)
      Oh. I forgot to tell?

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2010, 10:15:03 pm »
Ok, The language is copy written but only if we are making a profit from it. A good example is WoW. you can get private servers for it... copy wright? No. Only if you damage the company's income, or you are stealing there copy wright for your own gain. maple story, Left for dead (2), or even the fact that we use Na'vi in anything. So what we do is make a Na'vi for dummies book and it will all be non-profit as I said earlier.

This is both wrong and dangerous.

Copyright doesn't go away just because you're not making money from your copyright violation.  It may reduce the amount of damages you have to pay when you are sued, but it won't stop you from being sued, and it doesn't reduce the damages to zero.

Please read http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

However, as I mentioned earlier, copyright doesn't apply to what we're doing here - but not for the reason you think.  Reread my earlier post if you're not clear on this yet.

  - Eri

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2010, 10:20:10 pm »
OMFG you are smart! (I am humbled by your txan wisdom.)

Hah!  Thanks, but nothing smart about it... you hang around the Internet long enough, you see the whole copyright/trademark thing discussed time and time again.  With most people getting it really, really wrong, sadly.

  - Eri

Offline tsmukan ftu Eywa

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2010, 12:18:31 am »
Yea.... -_- ok but you can't explain why it isn't illegal for me to make a private server on WoW. Idc what third party info you throw at me. We aren't causing damage to any profit but releasing a how to book on speaking a made up language. other wise http://www.learnnavi.org/navi-vocabulary/ would be breaking the law. and the best example I can use here is the fact that the made up word "Na'vi" is bound by the same laws the rest of the language is. in other words were not shout down and they can't shout this down because were not breaking any laws. the how to books only contain phonetics and other commonly known things in English. explain to me without the use of a third party site that you probably googled and tell me and the rest of the world in your words how this is illegal.
NEYTIRI
      I am with you now, Jake. We are mated for
      life.

            JAKE
      We are?

            NEYTIRI
      Yes. It is our way.
         (innocently)
      Oh. I forgot to tell?

Offline Eight

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2010, 03:18:25 am »
Yea.... -_- ok but you can't explain why it isn't illegal for me to make a private server on WoW.
It's grey. But if memory serves, connecting to one violates the terms of agreement of the Warcraft game client since you have to modify a file to connect to a non-standard server. So the problem isn't so much at the server end, it's passed on to the end user.

And if the server was created using any code or intellectual property from Blizzard, then it may itself be illegal.

Aside from any other point you make, Na'vi for Dummies would essentially go in direct competition with the first book Fox/Frommer are likely to publish. If you affect their sales or damage their interests, then nevermind legalities, they'll just drop support for the language and we'll end up making it up ourselves. I say again, do not poke the bear.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 03:21:06 am by Eight »

Offline Baron

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Re: Na'vi for dummies
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2010, 05:19:32 am »
I don't see what a video game server has in common with a fictional language aside from ownership.  Law does not work that way, you can't apply statutes governing property ownership, in regards to say real estate or chattel, to intellectual copyright law.  In the same way you cannot say emulated servers that do not use company owned coding are not theft and therefore the exhibition of language rules of a company owned language is not theft.  It is much more complicated than that.  There are written statutes, federal and state (to complicate it even further), then there is case law and precedent.  It is unreasonable to believe that any amount of armchair lawyering will be accurate unless you somehow have law library research materials such as Westlaw. Also, damaging a companies profits does not make you civilly liable for said damages unless you do so through illegal means. 

I am not a lawyer; none of the above statements are intended as legal advice.  Ergo, vis-à-vis, concordantly, et cetera.

 

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