Author Topic: Pamrelfya a'Eoio  (Read 32459 times)

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Offline Prrton

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Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« on: September 02, 2010, 08:52:46 pm »
Folks, this came up in the Language Update area and really was getting "out of scope" for that area so I moved it here.

Na'vi is NOT a written language, so there is nothing official about this that relates to the film or Paul Frommer, or anyone associated with the franchise.

Several months ago I came up with a way to write Na'vi that does not use the Roman alphabet. That's all this is.

  

The first word is «oel» and the last is «nìwotx». The text is canon (an excerpt from something canonical). If any 'cryptographers' out there want to take a stab, be my guest. I don't promise that it is without errors. I did it a long time ago and it marks stress, and I may have gotten some of them wrong (though I have no good excuse except laziness). Some of the items are "special orthographic compounds" (cf & derived from what was the original Latin Et ('and')), but they are all still alphabetic and the letter forms are visually discernible. No "shorthand" per se. There is no capitalization. Special attention is given to verb infixes, but I won't point out explicitly what that is at this time. Liberty is taken with vertical extension and compression from time to time.

It's designed to be easily "scratched/notched/carved" or "pressed" into solid or semi-solid surfaces with a knife or improvised stylus. So no curvilinear forms.

I think of it as "ceremonial", and irrelevant.  ;)

« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 01:31:51 pm by Prrton »

Offline Kemaweyan

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Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2010, 09:44:28 pm »
Ma Prrton, oel fpole' ngar 'upxaret ìlä *PM* fte lahea sute kop tsivun fìpamrelìri ralit rivun ;)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Prrton

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Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2010, 09:51:20 pm »
Ma Prrton, oel fpole' ngar 'upxaret ìlä *PM* fte lahea sute kop tsivun fìpamrelìri ralit rivun ;)

Ngaru tìyawr nìwotx!, ma kanua sì wina 'eylan oeyä!*  ;D


Offline Kemaweyan

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Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2010, 10:09:16 pm »
Irayo ;D

Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Prrton

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Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2010, 10:27:29 pm »
Irayo ;D



   ;D

Ngäzìk lu fwa fkol spaw futa fìtxan nìwin slolu nga tsulfätu fìfnepamrelfyayä, ma oeyä 'eylan. Tsun fko txopu sivi nìftue.*  :o

  


« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 01:33:58 pm by Prrton »

Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2010, 10:42:18 pm »
Txantsan, slä...

Isn't Na'vi just an oral language?  Or is this a somewhat tricky & fun encryption excercise, 'cause, I'm not quite sure what canonical text you're referring to :-\
[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Offline Prrton

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Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2010, 10:58:18 pm »
Txantsan, slä...

Isn't Na'vi just an oral language?  Or is this a somewhat tricky & fun encryption excercise, 'cause, I'm not quite sure what canonical text you're referring to :-\

Yes. and Yes. Na'vi is an unwritten language (at least for the Omatikaya as we know them, and there is no reason to believe for other tribes at this point either); and this is a fun(?) and tricky (in the brain of the beholder) exercise. The Frommerian text to which I referred has only been perceived aurally, and seen in the "common Roman orthography" by the community. If I tell you which text it is, then there won't be any fun left for those who might still want to try to figure it out, μα Ώμα τιρέα.  ;)

Because it is not relevant to the Avatar construct, I think of it as basically irrelevant.

But, tsmukan Kemaweyan figured it out in about 2 seconds!!  8)  That was pretty interesting (and impressive) to me.


Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2010, 11:16:20 pm »
... μα 'Ώμα τιρέα.  ;)


ХРХ, ңа цивеъа "тиреа аеан" ::)


But, tsmukan Kemaweyan figured it out in about 2 seconds!!  8)  That was pretty interesting (and impressive) to me.


A big Wou indeed :o then again, this is from yet another one of the so-called Na'vi nì'aw fratsenge sute ngana....
[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Offline Payä Tìrol

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Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2010, 11:54:49 pm »

Making that took much more time than I thought it would, and I'm not sure when you decided to start stacking characters, tbh :/
Also, I hope my "ts" is understandable :P

Irrelevant, but fun!
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 11:59:35 pm by Payä Tìrol »
Oeyä atanìl mì sìvawm, mipa tìreyä tìsìlpeyur yat terìng

Offline Prrton

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Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2010, 12:23:51 am »

Making that took much more time than I thought it would, and I'm not sure when you decided to start stacking characters, tbh :/
Also, I hope my "ts" is understandable :P

Irrelevant, but fun!

Tsun tslivam, slä new wivìntxu lahea tìkenongit alu «tsakrr». Tsun pamrel sivi tsapamur alu «Tsä» fa 'awa rel nì'aw.*

   

There would also be a slightly different way to write the infix in «tslolam». Slä txantsan nìwotx!!  ;D


Offline Prrton

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Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2010, 01:04:25 am »

Here's the whole thing.

   

Proper names ARE marked.

Common things that occur frequently often have stacked or clumped versions, but it's kind of arbitrary too. Again, this was conceived as something "ceremonial" more than something completely practical or efficient.

If people are actually interested in this, we should probably move it to some other project area. It really is "out of bounds" for what's really relevant to the language.



Offline Kemaweyan

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Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2010, 04:43:05 am »
Irayo nìngay, eltur tìtxen si fìpamrelfya. Lu tsa'upxaremì 'a'awa keyey.. slä ke tsranten. Lu oer tìpawm alu pesul ngolop fìpamrelfyat? Ulte ke law lu oer pamrelviri alu ReR, ftxey tsaw lu fu ?

Ngäzìk lu fwa fkol spaw futa fìtxan nìwin slolu nga tsulfätu fìfnepamrelfyayä, ma oeyä 'eylan. Tsun fko txopu sivi nìftue.  :o

Pelun txopu sivi tsun fko? ;D

Tìsung. Frakrr lam oer fwa lu E tup U, talun mì famrelfya leNihongo alu Katakana fìpamrelvi lu E (エ) :D
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 04:51:20 am by Kemaweyan »
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Prrton

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Re: Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2010, 02:05:57 pm »
Irayo nìngay, eltur tìtxen si fìpamrelfya. Lu tsa'upxaremì 'a'awa keyey.. slä ke tsranten. Lu oer tìpawm alu pesul ngolop fìpamrelfyat? Ulte ke law lu oer pamrelviri alu ReR, ftxey tsaw lu fu ?
Ngopyu lu oe nì'awtu*. ReRìri lu mefnel a lu tenga pam nìfya a lu kxetse fuke, ke tsranten.*

Ngäzìk lu fwa fkol spaw futa fìtxan nìwin slolu nga tsulfätu fìfnepamrelfyayä, ma oeyä 'eylan. Tsun fko txopu sivi nìftue.  :o

Pelun txopu sivi tsun fko? ;D
Talun nga latsu txantslusam nì'it nìhawng, ma tsmkan. Lu nì'Ìnglìsì pxìm plltxe fkol a lì'fyavi alu «Tìkanu a 'eykong txoputi».*  ;)

Tìsung. Frakrr lam oer fwa lu E tup U, talun mì famrelfya leNihongo alu Katakana fìpamrelvi lu E (エ) :D
Nìlaw, slä fì'u ke lu ke'u akawnan. Lu hapxìvi* syayä nì'aw.* Hä kop lu tenga fnetxele. Tsar lu tìlam tengfya tsa«Hä» (alu 'eytsyì) leLatina.*  :-\


Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2010, 05:09:37 pm »
Ngopyu lu oe nì'awtu*. ReRìri lu mefnel a lu tenga pam nìfya a lu kxetse fuke, ke tsranten.*

Txantsana tìkangkem, irayo nìtxan :) Oer sunu frato säfpìl alu lahea fya'o fte aylì'uvir pamrel sivi. Nìngay tsaw lam na 'awa pamrelvi 'awsiteng ulte tsun fko nìftue tsive'a futa tsaw lu natkenong kemlì'uvi.

Tìoeyktìngìri teri ReR oe seiyi ngaru irayo :) Set law lu nìwotx.


Excellent work, thank you :) Most pleasing to me is the way to write affixes. Really that looks like one character and we can easy to see what it's, for example, infix.

Thank you for explanation of ReR :) Now it's completely clear.

Talun nga latsu txantslusam nì'it nìhawng, ma tsmkan. Lu nì'Ìnglìsì pxìm plltxe fkol a lì'fyavi alu «Tìkanu a 'eykong txoputi».*  ;)

Hrh ;D Tsaw nì'aw lam nìngay :)

Lol ;D Really it only seems :)

Nìlaw, slä fì'u ke lu ke'u akawnan. Lu hapxìvi* syayä nì'aw.* Hä kop lu tenga fnetxele. Tsar lu tìlam tengfya tsa«Hä» (alu 'eytsyì) leLatina.*  :-\

Oe ke new pivlltxe san kawnga pamrelvi sìk, kehe. Tsaw lu sìltsan ulte tsari a lam oer na pum leNihongo ke lu ngäzìk kaw'it. Oe nì'aw namew pivlltxe san lu hiyìk :)

I did not want to say "bad character", no. That is good and there are no problems with that this character seems to me as Japanese.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Payä Tìrol

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Re: Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2010, 08:48:03 pm »
Yes, it was quite amusing once I noticed what you were actually doing things with all those extraneous dashes and dots, besides stress. I like it.
Also, it wasn't *that* bad once I figured out what you were doing with affixes, and what symbol a couple of the other vowels were. I think just seeing a wall of random glyphs probably put a lot of people off from trying to figure it out.
Unfortunately, I don't like having to write with layers in photoshop :3

Also, Kemaweyan, out of curiosity, do you write it down in Na'vi and translate it into English (quite literally, it looks like), or has your English actually started picking up Na'vi grammar mannerisms?
Oeyä atanìl mì sìvawm, mipa tìreyä tìsìlpeyur yat terìng

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2010, 11:53:40 pm »
I really do need to work through this and see what it says (I'm trying not to cheat). I just want to say off the bat that this ia a beautiful and well thought-out script, Prrton (with all due respect to Na`vi being a spoken-only alnguage. After all, SOMEBODY had to invent the written form!). I hope I can make wide use of it down the road!

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2010, 11:50:44 am »
Ma Payä Tìrol, srane :) Oe pamrel si nìNa'vi nì'awve ulte maw fì'u ralpeng nì'Ìnglìsì. Omum oel futa oeyä lì'fya le'Ìnglìsì lu nìtam kawng, slä oe zene fmivi pivlltxe fìfya fte nivume. Nì'aw tskxekeng tsun oer srung sivi nìngay a fì'ut oel tslolam tengkrr nerume lì'fyati leNa'vi ;) Ulte oeru txoa livu furia trram mì ton oe.. fparmìl nìk'ong. Nìngay stum ke zerok kaw'it, oe narmew hivahaw nìtxan, taweak ke harmahaw munea trr nìkeftxo :( Slä set frawzo ;)

Fìtxeleri lu oer säfpìl. Oe new ngivop fpi eltu lefngap fìpamrelfyat a sawtute syaw san TTF :) Ngian oe kawkrr srekrr fìkem ke sami, tafral nìsngä'i zene nivume fì'ut :) Ulte nìngay fìpamrelfyari lu keltrrtrra famrelvi alu natkenong nì-, -ol-, -ur aylahesì. Ha lu fkor tìkin a ngivop fayfamrelvit sì stxot seyä, ngian oel mi ke omum ayholpxayit a tsun fko sivar sa'ufpi (oe plltxe teri tsayholpxay a sawtute syaw san symbol codes sìk). Slä tsalsungay oe set fmìsyi fìkem sivi, ftìyia fì'ut nì'it :)

Tìsung. Lolu oer säfpìl teri lì'u alu tafral. Tsunslu fwa fì'uteri omum fko srekrr, ngian oe kawkrr ke fpamìl fìtxeleri. Tse, lam oer fwa fìlì'ut ngolop fkol ta melì'u alu tafìral, kefyak?

Tìsung nì'ul. Kxawm tstxo fìpamrelfyayä eltuä lefngap tsun livu Eoio, pe'ut ayngal fpìl?

Tam, set ralpìyeng oe...

Payä Tìrol, yes :) I first write in Na'vi and after this translate in english. I know my english is enough bad, but I must try to speak in english for learning. While I learn Na'vi I had understood what training only can help me :) And excuse me for yesterday at night I.. was thinking slowly. Really I remember almost nothing, I was very sleepy because did not sleep two days :( But now all right :)

As for topic, I have an idea. I want to create this font for computers as TTF :) However I never did it, therefore in first I must learn how to do it :) And there are not ordinary symbols, like nì-, -ol-, -ur and other, in this writing. So, we need to create also this characters and their names, however yet I don't know codes that I can use fot these symbols. But nevertheless I'll try do it now :)

P.S. I have an idea about word tafral. Maybe you already know this, but I never think about it before. Well, It seems to me that this word was created from ta and fìral.

P.P.S. Maybe name of this font could be Eoio, what do you think?
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Prrton

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Re: Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2010, 01:19:11 pm »

Tam, set ralpìyeng oe...

Payä Tìrol, yes :) I first write in Na'vi and after this translate in english. I know my english is enough bad, but I must try to speak in english for learning. While I learn Na'vi I had understood what training only can help me :) And excuse me for yesterday at night I.. was thinking slowly. Really I remember almost nothing, I was very sleepy because did not sleep two days :( But now all right :)

As for topic, I have an idea. I want to create this font for computers as TTF :) However I never did it, therefore in first I must learn how to do it :) And there are not ordinary symbols, like nì-, -ol-, -ur and other, in this writing. So, we need to create also this characters and their names, however yet I don't know codes that I can use fot these symbols. But nevertheless I'll try do it now :)

P.S. I have an idea about word tafral. Maybe you already know this, but I never think about it before. Well, It seems to me that this word was created from ta and fìral.

P.P.S. Maybe name of this font could be Eoio, what do you think?

Ma Kemaweyan,

First I have to say that your English is ALWAYS very easy to understand and you should never hesitate to use it (even when you are tired). I'm must writing here in English because I don't think there are so many folks here in this area who want to try to follow more complex sentences in Na'vi (which you also write perfectly!)

I LOVE the name Eoio for your font project and I would be happy to collaborate with you. I have never made a TTF or OTF before either, but Josh (Yotswa) has many in the public domain that he created almost 20 years ago using Fontographer.

   

I have also been in touch with Ian James from Australia who created Nav many months ago. Ian is not learning Na'vi so he would not have "language skill expertise" as any input into such a project, but he has LOTS of skill and expertise creating fonts. I think Nav is really nice (as the more "hand-written" version). It's not really complete, though. It doesn't fully handle diphthongs, for example. Eoio's solution would show that with two stacked vowels. I could put you in touch with Ian to see if he might want to collaborate.

I believe that you'd have to create an OTF (OpenType Font) in order to support the complex script features like the stacks and compounds.

I will put together a full set of all the glyphs I have so far and show them to everyone here.

The main reason I believe you will need to do this as an OpenType Font is to avoid needing a separate input method to type it. The ligature handling of OpenType should be able to take a person typing n a ' v i and contextually render those 5 letters together as:

   

The font itself can carry the information to know that n a ' v i typed in that order means "show glyph #987", for example where the single letterform composed of all of these shapes is glyph #987. If there is no special mapping for that sequence of 5, then just the five original (basic) letterforms would be shown in left to right order. My technical understanding of this is not perfect and I won't be much help for the layout tags or any of this stuff, etc., but I'm happy to make the individual letterforms, stacks and compounds into the most beautiful shapes they can be. I have pretty good skills with Adobe Illustrator.

I'm warning you. Based on my understanding of the technology, this is one of the most complex typographic challenges anyone could undertake. But if you can execute it, I'm sure I'll be be seeing you featured in one of these articles one day.

Mi alaksi nang, srak?  ;)



Offline MIPP

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Re: Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2010, 01:31:57 pm »
Wow!
So, for a dummies like me, how could I learn to write that way?
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Offline Prrton

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Re: Pamrelfya a'Eoio
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2010, 01:38:02 pm »
Wow!
So, for a dummies like me, how could I learn to write that way?

I'll post all of the conceptual specs for my designs and if tsmukan Kemaweyan creates the font and distributes it, then all you'll have to do is type!

    ;D

 

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