Author Topic: Taronyu's Grammar  (Read 3469 times)

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Offline Taronyu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2010, 04:13:00 am »
In the phonetics section, we (linguists) don't usually modify the IPA chart to describe the phonemes of a language, because you end up with lots of unused columns and rows.  Also, the table misses some things, like ejectives and the affricate [ts].  If you'd like, I can cook up a table as an example (or for inclusion if you want to just stick it in the doc) that is more along the lines of what you would find in a language description.

This is what I've seen elsewhere, inlcuding Frommer's blog. We (linguists) can sometimes modify the IPA chart to show legal consonants. It's not really modifying the IPA: it's eliminating extra information.

Offline suomichris

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2010, 04:17:32 am »
In the phonetics section, we (linguists) don't usually modify the IPA chart to describe the phonemes of a language, because you end up with lots of unused columns and rows.  Also, the table misses some things, like ejectives and the affricate [ts].  If you'd like, I can cook up a table as an example (or for inclusion if you want to just stick it in the doc) that is more along the lines of what you would find in a language description.

This is what I've seen elsewhere, inlcuding Frommer's blog. We (linguists) can sometimes modify the IPA chart to show legal consonants. It's not really modifying the IPA: it's eliminating extra information.
Err... I guess I'm not following here, since the chart you have has the extra, unneeded information in it?  Maybe I'm looking at an older version of the document?

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2010, 04:19:49 am »
In the phonetics section, we (linguists) don't usually modify the IPA chart to describe the phonemes of a language, because you end up with lots of unused columns and rows.  Also, the table misses some things, like ejectives and the affricate [ts].  If you'd like, I can cook up a table as an example (or for inclusion if you want to just stick it in the doc) that is more along the lines of what you would find in a language description.

This is what I've seen elsewhere, inlcuding Frommer's blog. We (linguists) can sometimes modify the IPA chart to show legal consonants. It's not really modifying the IPA: it's eliminating extra information.
Err... I guess I'm not following here, since the chart you have has the extra, unneeded information in it?  Maybe I'm looking at an older version of the document?

What, you mean like the row for lateral flaps? I've kept that in to give a frame of reference for those unused to looking at a denuded IPA chart.

Offline suomichris

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2010, 04:21:39 am »
In the phonetics section, we (linguists) don't usually modify the IPA chart to describe the phonemes of a language, because you end up with lots of unused columns and rows.  Also, the table misses some things, like ejectives and the affricate [ts].  If you'd like, I can cook up a table as an example (or for inclusion if you want to just stick it in the doc) that is more along the lines of what you would find in a language description.

This is what I've seen elsewhere, inlcuding Frommer's blog. We (linguists) can sometimes modify the IPA chart to show legal consonants. It's not really modifying the IPA: it's eliminating extra information.
Err... I guess I'm not following here, since the chart you have has the extra, unneeded information in it?  Maybe I'm looking at an older version of the document?

What, you mean like the row for lateral flaps? I've kept that in to give a frame of reference for those unused to looking at a denuded IPA chart.
Well, yes, along with columns for things like "epiglottal," which don't show up in Na'vi.  I just thought it might be nice to have a spruced up chart without the extra stuff in there...

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2010, 04:49:43 am »
Mmm. Up to you if you want one. Would stop editing, later, but I don't think there is going to be much more along the lines of new phonology. Might add /s/ and /ʒ/, though...

Offline suomichris

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2010, 12:37:20 pm »
Here is more what I meant:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/suomichris/4287932463/#sizes/o/

I can send it along in a .doc format if you'd like, so you can tweak it/edit it/etc.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2010, 01:04:51 pm »
I'm trying to keep syllabic information separate. And it is precisely that sort of format that has caused some confusion: I'm speaking specifically of a versus ä and ɑ

Offline suomichris

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2010, 01:09:38 pm »
I'm trying to keep syllabic information separate. And it is precisely that sort of format that has caused some confusion: I'm speaking specifically of a versus ä and ɑ
Well, the information about syllable structure is easily removed; I was just following Frommer's format on the Language Log post.

I'm not sure what the problem was with ä versus a, since I don't have the vowels on there.  I can cook up a vowel chart, if you want to take a look, though..

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2010, 01:11:20 pm »
Nah. To be honest, I think I prefer using the IPA chart. Makes it feel more official, to me, for some reason. I hope that's alright.

I've updated the grammar. Check out the sourcing in the Orthography section: tell me what you think, please, fyapo, as I think that this really ought to be clear (sourcing, that is.)

Offline suomichris

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2010, 01:14:34 pm »
Nah. To be honest, I think I prefer using the IPA chart. Makes it feel more official, to me, for some reason. I hope that's alright.
Sure, you can do whatever you'd like.  Just be aware that it is non-standard and actually not "official" in terms of how linguists describe language, so you might have people like me in the future bugging you about it again.... :p

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2010, 01:24:36 pm »
I've added what I think is a very important section.  Please refer to Page 3: the Sourcing section. Let me know what you think.

I do have another comment.  You've arranged the sources in order of canonicity.  I would move Wikipedia further down the list, to just below "Taronyu".  Or perhaps even drop it entirely, as it's redundant with "facts not derived by Taronyu".

Let me explain myself.  Every fact in the Wikipedia article is itself derived from one of the sources you've already listed: F, FE, MS, SG, etc.  Any facts it contains that are not derived from one of those sources (and I believe there are some such, although I can't point to them offhand) are derived by the article authors, using the sorts of reasoning that you yourself have used.  The difference, and why I would rank the WP derivations below yours, is that the WP authors (by which I basically mean Kwami, since he's written the vast bulk of the article by far) have not documented the reasoning and sources behind their analysis and derivations.  You have, at least partially, and I know you keep improving your documentation as you work on it.  Kwami keeps improving the article, but he never shows his work.

"But.. but.. but.. Frommer blessed it!"  Well, no.  Not really.  He said "The Wikipedia article on Na’vi, although not a complete description of the language, is well done and reliable."  There's a few problems with that statement:

1. We don't know when Frommer reviewed the article.  The last possible revision he could have been talking about was from sometime in the evening (California time) of Jan 1 2010 when he started sending out emails like the one above.  But it could have been from days earlier.  We don't know.

2. We don't know how closely he reviewed the article.  Well enough to call it "well done" and "reliable" - but does that really mean he scrutinized every fact and verified that it conformed to his internal knowledge?  Might not he have skimmed it lightly and missed something?  We don't know.

3. We don't know how much of what he did see is included in his "blessing".  Might not he have identified some errors and not to bothered to correct them, but nevertheless decided that a few errors didn't disqualify it from being "well done" and "reliable" (particularly in light of some egregious errors being propagated elsewhere)?  We don't know.

Frommer's blessing of the Wikipedia article cannot be relied upon as Frommer authenticating the correctness of any particular fact contained in any particular revision of the article.  Consequently, I stand by my suggestion that you not elevate "W" in your source list beyond "D".

  - Eri

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2010, 01:26:33 pm »
Also, I noticed you've dropped the ASG non-flora non-song main text.  I'd love to know your thoughts on that, for my own edification.

  - Eri

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2010, 01:41:17 pm »
Nah. To be honest, I think I prefer using the IPA chart. Makes it feel more official, to me, for some reason. I hope that's alright.
Sure, you can do whatever you'd like.  Just be aware that it is non-standard and actually not "official" in terms of how linguists describe language, so you might have people like me in the future bugging you about it again.... :p

I have yet to see a language described with any consistency anywhere but Wikipedia.

Also, I'm a linguist.

Offline suomichris

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2010, 01:44:35 pm »
I have yet to see a language described with any consistency anywhere but Wikipedia.

Also, I'm a linguist.
I find it kind of hard to believe that you're a linguist, but think that Wikipedia is the best source there is for language description!  Nonetheless, you will note that no page on Wikipedia has the complete IPA chart for a language: the tables are trimmed down and altered to fit the specific language; if people are confused about that, they can compare it to the IPA.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2010, 02:10:27 pm »
I have yet to see a language described with any consistency anywhere but Wikipedia.

Also, I'm a linguist.
I find it kind of hard to believe that you're a linguist, but think that Wikipedia is the best source there is for language description!  Nonetheless, you will note that no page on Wikipedia has the complete IPA chart for a language: the tables are trimmed down and altered to fit the specific language; if people are confused about that, they can compare it to the IPA.

I don't think Wikipedia is the best source. And thanks for doubting the fact that I am what I say I am.

Offline suomichris

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2010, 03:21:48 pm »
I don't think Wikipedia is the best source. And thanks for doubting the fact that I am what I say I am.
I'm not doubting that you are what you say you are, only that I would find it hard to believe that someone who thinks Wikipedia is the best source for information about languages would be a linguist.  But, apparently, you didn't mean that, so never mind :p

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2010, 09:18:02 pm »
I do have another comment.  You've arranged the sources in order of canonicity.  I would move Wikipedia further down the list, to just below "Taronyu".  Or perhaps even drop it entirely, as it's redundant with "facts not derived by Taronyu".

...

Frommer's blessing of the Wikipedia article cannot be relied upon as Frommer authenticating the correctness of any particular fact contained in any particular revision of the article.  Consequently, I stand by my suggestion that you not elevate "W" in your source list beyond "D".

I moved it. Might still put it back in with D. Not sure. That seems like it might be a good move: the derivations actually seem to be around half and half, which suggests that I may not have a good memory for remembering what I thought might happen or not.

Quote from: Eri
Also, I noticed you've dropped the ASG non-flora non-song main text.  I'd love to know your thoughts on that, for my own edification.

I think I added that back in. Go look again.

@suimichris: well, i'm keeping the IPA. Not using it is part of what got me into a bit of a mess in the first place, if you look at Frommer's blog.

@everyone I sourced everything. Please have a look, read it closely. This should, in the end, replace everything else we've got, including Wikipedia, and I'm bound to have made some mistakes. Thanks.

http://content.learnnavi.org/taronyu/NaviGrammar.pdf


Offline suomichris

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2010, 09:20:15 pm »
@suimichris: well, i'm keeping the IPA. Not using it is part of what got me into a bit of a mess in the first place, if you look at Frommer's blog.
I think it is great to keep the IPA, I am a huge fan of the IPA, and wish more people would use it.  I was just noting that, when you use the IPA to describe a language, you do not leave all of the irrelevant rows/columns in the table; you make the table fit the language.

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2010, 11:36:50 pm »
Quote from: Eri
Also, I noticed you've dropped the ASG non-flora non-song main text.  I'd love to know your thoughts on that, for my own edification.
I think I added that back in. Go look again.

Why, sho nuf, you did!

I sourced everything. Please have a look, read it closely.

I had a look but haven't read it closely (yet).  Looks great!  I love it!  More specifically, I think this is the right approach to take, and I think you're taking it well (so to speak).

This should, in the end, replace everything else we've got, including Wikipedia, and I'm bound to have made some mistakes. Thanks.

I love it, I'm excited, I'm looking forward to more, yay.  BUT...

... and I'm going to put this in itty bitty type so we can all go "shhh!" and pretend I didn't say anything...

... this is the kind of thing that should have been happening all along, and it should have been done on a wiki page so that we all could have been contributing instead of relying on single-person heroic efforts, and it should have been on a wiki page so that there would be a centrally organized collection of information instead of stuff being scattered across two hundred forum threads, and it should have been on a non-Wikipedia wiki page because it's mind-numbingly obvious that this is Original Research and that's not supposed to be on Wikipedia, and every specific item should have been individually characterized as "backed by Frommer" or "reasonable assumption" or "my wild-ass guess that nobody else agrees with" rather than just put out there as fact or excluded because someone disagreed with it, and every specific item should have been individually linked to a specific citation for support or a specific discussion page for everyone to contribute to the underlying analysis.

Anyway.  Nice weather we're having, huh?

  - Eri

Offline Karyu Amawey

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2010, 11:42:53 pm »
Hey Taronyu, good job so far with the grammar.  Could you enlighten me as to where you find evidence of the uvular nasal /N/?
Oel ayngati kameie

 

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