Author Topic: Taronyu's Grammar  (Read 3468 times)

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Offline Taronyu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2010, 03:01:44 am »
Karyu, I'll need to find the quote, I've lost the link. I'll footnote it when I find it. Until then, I'll mark that as T8 (dubious).

Eri, concerning the weather: If not now, when?

Offline Kiliyä

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2010, 05:24:50 am »
And here was I downloading another copy hoping you'd done some more on the grammary bits like verbs and plurals and such.  Sigh!
Peu sa'nokyä ayoengyä?  Pefya ayoeng poeru kìte'e sayi?
Pefya ayoengìl poeti hayawnu, na poel ayoengit hawnu?

What of our mother?  How shall we serve her?  How shall we protect her as she protects us?

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2010, 06:38:04 am »
And here was I downloading another copy hoping you'd done some more on the grammary bits like verbs and plurals and such.  Sigh!

I am sorry. My time is actually fairly limited. How about I don't go fix my bike today, but rather work on getting this done. Right. Expect an update later tonight.

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2010, 09:13:35 am »

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2010, 10:15:39 am »
Quote
... this is the kind of thing that should have been happening all along, and it should have been done on a wiki page so that we all could have been contributing instead of relying on single-person heroic efforts, and it should have been on a wiki page so that there would be a centrally organized collection of information instead of stuff being scattered across two hundred forum threads, and it should have been on a non-Wikipedia wiki page because it's mind-numbingly obvious that this is Original Research and that's not supposed to be on Wikipedia, and every specific item should have been individually characterized as "backed by Frommer" or "reasonable assumption" or "my wild-ass guess that nobody else agrees with" rather than just put out there as fact or excluded because someone disagreed with it, and every specific item should have been individually linked to a specific citation for support or a specific discussion page for everyone to contribute to the underlying analysis.

The weather is fine ... maybe just a little bit too cold, but all in one ... fine.

Besides that: I completely agree with the small letter text. Of course, it's an amazing work, Taronyu is doing. But - if I may say it (maybe I should use smaller letters too ... ok):

I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable about materials titled (or called) "My dictionary", "My grammar" etc., when in fact many people continually are making contributions to them and helping them to grow and to get more correct step by step. I saw very well, that Taronyu started to note, who mentioned the things he changed e. g. in "his" dictionary, but nevertheless they are titled and widely connected with just one name. I mean: Putting information together from different sources, adding my own thoughts and offering this material to the forum, inviting/asking the users to make comments and corrections, inserting the many, many contributions and still calling it "My ~~~" is at least a bit odd to me. That's exactly the way, a WIKI works!

Thus ... wouldn't it be much easier for everybody to contribute to this research in a wiki-environment? Wouldn't the knowledge grow even faster, if everybody dealing with a special problem and digging into it could contribute his results? Then, I don't doubt, that there was also now more stuff done, than just the phonetics. I must admit, that I personally don't want to proof-read Taronyu's phonetic-chapter at the moment. It just isn't something, which takes my interest at this time. And since my time is limited as well, I'd like to use it for the problems I'm trying to solve these days. If there where a wiki I'd really like to contribute my two cents to it.

And last, but not least, I think, that a wiki would contribute also more to the feeling of working together as a COMMUNITY. At this moment, regarding the so little stuff we have to work on, we rely on each other. I'd really like the idea of us as little ants bringing together little pieces from here and there in order to construct a building (= the wiki), in which we all could feel comfortable contributing our ideas as partners.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 10:17:13 am by Na'rìghawnu »

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2010, 10:25:29 am »
I've felt uncomfortable about that, as well, to be honest. The problem is that most derivations are in fact mine, and the editorial decisions are for the most part mine as well. You'll have noticed that I source every person who suggests something in the ChangeLog of my dictionary - I'll be doing that for the grammar, as soon as I get what I regard to be a complete version of it.

Secondly, I don't like wikis. Call me old fashioned, but I like documents.

As for the small letters, people, use BIG LETTERS for doubts, because they are what inhibit progress, or show flaws that need to be changed. I'll change the small text of my Dictionary Title, and the thread name. It is more of a collective work than otherwise, these days.

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2010, 10:38:10 am »
At this moment, regarding the so little stuff we have to work on, we rely on each other.

Per Taronyu's suggestion, I'm repeating this:

At this moment, regarding the so little stuff we have to work on, we rely on each other.

I'd really like the idea of us as little ants bringing together little pieces from here and there in order to construct a building (= the wiki), in which we all could feel comfortable contributing our ideas as partners.

No time like the present. :)

  - Eri

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2010, 10:57:33 am »
Call me old fashioned, but I like documents.

Okay.

"Ma Taronyuri, ke lefmawnfya’o lu."

  - Eri

Offline Ikran

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2010, 11:11:28 am »
Has anyone seen the Na'vi page in Wikipedia? According to it, the trial is formed using the prefix pxe-. Sources? Comments?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%27vi_language#Number

 ???  ???

Offline HTML_Earth

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2010, 11:16:19 am »
Has anyone seen the Na'vi page in Wikipedia? According to it, the trial is formed using the prefix pxe-. Sources? Comments?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%27vi_language#Number

 ???  ???

I checked the history.
The same person who wrote that, also wrote this:
Quote
The trials are less common, but occur for example as ''pxehilvan'' "three rivers"

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2010, 12:22:58 pm »
@Taronyu

Quote
Call me old fashioned, but I like documents.

;D Oldfashioned, because you like documents? No, my friend, it's surely not me, who would call you oldfashioned for this reason. In my next live I surely will become a librarian ... just for the joy of having even more books around me than the thousands, which are here around me at this moment. I too love documents ... I do love them so much, that I not just buy any interesting book I can afford, but also write a book myself every couple of years. Haha!

Ok, but back to the topic. Indeed I think, it's really a pity, that you dislike Wikis. Because I feel, that - used as a tool for research - they are exactly, what we could need right now. I completely agree, that a document is a really important thing. But - if you'd ask me - I'd say, that a document is perfect to record facts and results in order to propagate them. It can work as a handbook, a lexicon, a study-material etc.

But at the moment we nearly don't have any "hard facts"; we are in a "fluid" state, diging, deliberating, discussing, doing field-search etc. It's a really exciting situation, but I hold, that this is not just the right time to write a book. It's a time of collecting, not of propagating.

Of course, you very well know, in which state we are at the moment, but nevertheless you try to make documents. That's possible, of course, but since our knowledge is changing so quickly at this time, you are urged to redo your documents every couple of hours ... again and again ... (Ok, I do this too, but since my documents are just known to me, that's no problem.)

And here the Wiki-Idea comes in. A research-wiki is exactly the tool, which would make things a lot easier. Not just, that you would save time for your own work (instead of reading other peoples comments about your materials, deliberating about them, deciding, whether you should change your materials or not, ...), it would also allow people, who have got results in other fields (which are not (or not yet) covered in your materials) to contribute their ideas. Every single bit is needed at the moment!

I know, that there is the "Learn Na'vi Wiki" http://wiki.learnnavi.org/. And it's great e. g. because of the corpus there. I'd like to use it as a research-wiki too, but I don't dare to open some entries there, because of my insufficient English. I'd really like to add my thoughts in discussions and do minor changings etc., but I don't want to be the one, who writes the basic text.

And because YOU do put so much engagement, knowledge and enthusiasm into the Na'vi-language, you would be predestinated to be one of the leading authors of such a wiki. That's, why I say, that's really a pity, that you don't like wikis ...

« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 12:25:35 pm by Na'rìghawnu »

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2010, 12:27:32 pm »
Sources? Comments?

Via email from Frommer.  Note also the alternate form of ayoeng.

It is a very irritating feature of the current Wikipedia page that it has several valuable bits of info from Frommer, but isn't carefully sourced.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2010, 12:30:07 pm »
I know, that there is the "Learn Na'vi Wiki" http://wiki.learnnavi.org/. And it's great e. g. because of the corpus there. I'd like to use it as a research-wiki too, but I don't dare to open some entries there, because of my insufficient English. I'd really like to add my thoughts in discussions and do minor changings etc., but I don't want to be the one, who writes the basic text.

Go ahead and add things!  No one seems inhibited about editing my text, and I'm a native speaker.  ;)
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2010, 12:56:23 pm »
@ Na'rìghawnu:

I may go forth and edit the wiki, but I want to finish this document first. I've been looking, and there are some serious gaps on the Wiki, which annoys me to the point that I may personally just fill them (since I don't mind being the first to write stuff, not in the least). However, I think that having a single thing to download would be incredibly useful. A lot of people have just copied that Wiki and saved it (I have, for one), and I think that a sourced document is a lot better. I also wanted a forum for my own derivations, and this is certainly one.

However, this grammar isn't the end of my plan. What I really want to do is make a guide, a textbook to help people learn. I need to make sure that I know the language first. You can see why I'm going into such depth, then, I think.

As for editing every couple of hours: I kind of enjoy that. The dictionary editing is mostly spelling errors, to be true.

@wm.annis: I totally agree. Now why won't Frommer ever respond to me? Grr.

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2010, 01:00:59 pm »
I've been looking, and there are some serious gaps on the Wiki, which annoys me to the point that I may personally just fill them (since I don't mind being the first to write stuff, not in the least).

Yay!

However, I think that having a single thing to download would be incredibly useful.

Agreed!

@wm.annis: I totally agree. Now why won't Frommer ever respond to me? Grr.

He's probably seen your forum picture.

  - Eri

Offline Kiliyä

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2010, 07:30:27 pm »
Ma Taronyu, rä'ä krrnekx rutxe to ayu ayawne ngeyä! Txo fìli'ukoren kawng slivu, fì'u pxan krryä ngeÿa ke lu.
Peu sa'nokyä ayoengyä?  Pefya ayoeng poeru kìte'e sayi?
Pefya ayoengìl poeti hayawnu, na poel ayoengit hawnu?

What of our mother?  How shall we serve her?  How shall we protect her as she protects us?

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2010, 06:03:13 am »
Ma Taronyu, rä'ä krrnekx rutxe to ayu ayawne ngeyä! Txo fìli'ukoren kawng slivu, fì'u pxan krryä ngeÿa ke lu.

Oe tslolam. Oe rä'ä sayi, nekx oeyä krr a lu. Slä fì'u sìltsan oeru lolu, ulte set oe pìyey 'itit eo oe zìya'u 'ìm. Oe new ngima tìhahaw, set...

Fì'u oeyä nìlaw ke soli. Fì'u sayi ke. Oe fpìl futa fì'u sìltsan lu.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2010, 01:53:57 pm »
Hey guys.

Massive update. Meaning, I copied Wikipedia, didn't look through it, but latexed everything. Still, it's a good 7 hours of work.

So much for my homework this weekend.  :P

Everything
Just the grammar

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #58 on: January 31, 2010, 03:28:54 pm »
So much for my homework this weekend.  :P

This was your homework this weekend.  Wow.

  - Eri

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Taronyu's Grammar
« Reply #59 on: January 31, 2010, 05:18:01 pm »
oooooooo, I approve of this over homework.

 

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