Author Topic: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey  (Read 4980 times)

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2015, 10:52:20 am »
The anonymous part is very useful.

At the beginning, the people have generally a good opinion, but when it comes to comment about the community, more negative, but constructive comments come. They show us what is said and thought behind the scenes and how we could improve our attitude and our teaching.

I retain the proposition of praticing the Na'vi culture. We don't know everything about it, but we can do something.
This community has still a lot to do regarding the Na'vi language and culture.

I sincerely thank you for making this survey that I support since the beginning (despite of the comments).
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 11:10:25 am by Vawmataw »

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2015, 10:54:55 am »
I just saw the PDF file. It's pretty impressive (+1 to you both), WOU. :D
There are definely some interesting points we could discuss about. :) I'll read that file more carefully this evening (my time zone).

As for discussing the results, should we do that in this thread or start another? Might as well do it here, I guess, unless anyone thinks it would be better to start a new thread.
Hmm, this thread should be sufficient. (Ma Tirea?)

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2015, 11:00:49 am »
One thread is enough. Everyone will know that the following posts are the comments about the results and the survey.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 11:09:47 am by Vawmataw »

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2015, 11:22:45 am »
It's sad that only 8 people answered to the question about why they gave up.

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2015, 11:26:12 am »
It's sad that only 8 people answered to the question about why they gave up.

were there more than 8 people who actually gave up?

Hmm, this thread should be sufficient. (Ma Tirea?)

Should be okay.

EDIT: +1 for the survey! I greatly appreciate this. Very nice presentation of the results :D
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 12:00:43 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2015, 11:26:41 am »
oh
Ke poltxe. :x

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2015, 11:35:02 am »
I'm glad two people came with the idea of making a survey. When the second movie will come, we will be more able to welcome the newcomers and keep them after years. Also, we will be more able to keep the current members.

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2015, 11:38:05 am »
Thank you for compiling that ma Kame Ayyo’koti sì Tstewa Ikrantsìp!

It’s in fact very interesting to read. Though I have to say that the tendencies of how the community is seen I find highly alarming (comparing that to other studies that have been conducted where the overall message was positive throughout). Simply because of the fact that I got to know the community from an early stage on and I find it very sad when newcomers who want to be part of the community or want to learn the language are put off by certain, unspecified people. Maybe I have been part of that putting-people-down attitude. If so, I am very very sorry if anything came across as rude or from a high-almighty-place. This is never my intention!

I had a great experience coming into this community and I want to give that experience to everyone who wants to join.

Speaking as someone who wants the Na’vi speaking community grow to actually use the language to communicate I always try to encourage people. Not everybody has the same threshold when it comes to taking the plunge into the language. That’s why we have to listen to each other. We have to take care of each other. We have to look out for each other. Little quarrels won’t help the community to grow, they will only devide an already small community. If we stand and work together with mutual respect I think we can achieve great things.

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2015, 12:04:42 pm »
Thank you for compiling that ma Kame Ayyo’koti sì Tstewa Ikrantsìp!

It’s in fact very interesting to read. Though I have to say that the tendencies of how the community is seen I find highly alarming (comparing that to other studies that have been conducted where the overall message was positive throughout). Simply because of the fact that I got to know the community from an early stage on and I find it very sad when newcomers who want to be part of the community or want to learn the language are put off by certain, unspecified people. Maybe I have been part of that putting-people-down attitude. If so, I am very very sorry if anything came across as rude or from a high-almighty-place. This is never my intention!

I had a great experience coming into this community and I want to give that experience to everyone who wants to join.

Speaking as someone who wants the Na’vi speaking community grow to actually use the language to communicate I always try to encourage people. Not everybody has the same threshold when it comes to taking the plunge into the language. That’s why we have to listen to each other. We have to take care of each other. We have to look out for each other. Little quarrels won’t help the community to grow, they will only devide an already small community. If we stand and work together with mutual respect I think we can achieve great things.

^ Absolutely all of this.


Some of these responses truly almost made me cry. :(

We must change. I want nothing more than to spread enthusiasm and love for the language and knowledge of it to all who want it.  I must say, though alarming and unfortunate, every one of those replies has truth to it.

If I have ever been one of the people causing discouragement, I too am truly sorry and promise to work harder to help make this community as great and welcoming as it can be.

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2015, 12:30:40 pm »
Quote
If I have ever been one of the people causing discouragement, I too am truly sorry.
^ This for me.

Maybe we need to regulate a little bit more.

Tirea has the idea of correcting (and meanwhile teaching) in a kind and friendly the people by PMs.
What other solutions do you suggest?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 12:37:02 pm by Vawmataw »

Offline Wllìm

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2015, 01:26:31 pm »
Quote
If I have ever been one of the people causing discouragement, I too am truly sorry.
^ This for me.
And for me as well. I try to help people as much as possible and not at all to discourage people. If that happened, I apologize.

In general, I notice that some people describe the community as elitist / a bunch of people who pretend to know a lot about the language. On the other hand, there are people who want to be taught more. This leaves me confused in general. You can't teach someone without knowing a lot about the subject, right? Am I interpreting this incorrectly?

There are also some people that mention a lack of activities for beginners, to exercise their language skills. I fully agree on this and I propose something like this: a weekly "exercise / activity" for beginners. For example: given a story, fill in the gaps. Or, given some Na'vi text, find the five grammar errors. Or a small translation. Or answering some questions about a Na'vi text. Or questions on a recording of spoken Na'vi... Things like that. Just something small every week, that people can send answers for, and have it checked / graded by one of the more experienced members. Would that be something useful? In that case, I volunteer to run this, perhaps with some others...

Maybe we need to regulate a little bit more.

Tirea has the idea of correcting (and meanwhile teaching) in a kind and friendly the people by PMs.
What other solutions do you suggest?
The problem with PMs is that you don't know if some mistake has been corrected yet. Hence, newcomers may get a flood of PMs, which is clearly unwanted. Also, other people can't learn from the discussion.

The following is just my opinion...

For myself, I'd say: just don't correct the minor mistakes beginners make! If someone forgets the agentive case marker or something once, then I don't think that actually needs correction. On the other hand, when someone consistently forgets the case markers, you can point him/her to some info about that or teach him/her about it. Also, if some message in Na'vi is not understandable at all due to errors. But those little corrections - I don't see how they are useful, and they annoy people.
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2015, 01:28:17 pm »
First, we need to teach. Kindly, and without condescending attitude. Most of us (obviously?) don't know that this is attitude  we have.

Second, we need to keep learning fun with activities and games of some sort. We need some simple worksheets, booklets, homework, activites to do to keep the learning fresh and fun. Nothing too fancy or overwhelming.

Third, we need to stop making ninja public-shaming posts and grammar-nazi clutter in chat threads. PMs with quick kind words of advice could do the trick, but what if everyone has that same idea? The failure in this lies when everyone who sees a need to correct the post ninja attacks the person with a PM at the same time. I'm still trying to figure out how to fix this. This correction thing is a huge issue we have. It's not fun to learn and people get discouraged, if all they ever see is "You're wrong" everywhere.

No posts that contain just corrections. (I'll be watching myself on this one too)

Fourth, just be calm and friendly people who are approachable. More casual and pleasant. Like a family without borders.

Also, Crash course to terms needs a heck of an update and rewrite for non-linguist laymen.

So much can be done to improve :)

EDIT:

For myself, I'd say: just don't correct the minor mistakes beginners make! If someone forgets the agentive case marker or something once, then I don't think that actually needs correction. On the other hand, when someone consistently forgets the case markers, you can point him/her to some info about that or teach him/her about it. Also, if some message in Na'vi is not understandable at all due to errors. But those little corrections - I don't see how they are useful, and they annoy people.

I agree with this!

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Offline Kame Ayyo’koti

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2015, 01:49:16 pm »
It's sad that only 8 people answered to the question about why they gave up.

were there more than 8 people who actually gave up?
Only those who answered "Yes" to giving up or considering giving up were asked what their reasons were. Only 8 people said they considered or had given up, which is a good thing I imagine. :P (Btw, none of the questions were mandatory except for "Do you mind if we share your written answers to open-ended questions?", once I added it.)

EDIT: +1 for the survey! I greatly appreciate this. Very nice presentation of the results :D
Thank you. :D And the PDF is basically just a copy of the Google Docs results page. :P I could've shared a link to it, but there's no way for me to remove the private stuff. In any case I prefer an all-in-one doc that we can read and analyze.

At the beginning, the people have generally a good opinion, but when it comes to comment about the community, more negative, but constructive comments come. They show us what is said and thought behind the scenes and how we could improve our attitude and our teaching.
Many comments were positive, and keep in mind that about 2/3 of the people had positive answers to "How do you feel about the people in the community?" Also a lot of the private answers have positive comments about the community. So while there's room for improvement, we're not doing entirely bad.

The replies do make me wonder about what we're doing to appear so unfriendly. (I'm not sure if it's obvious, given the ambiguity of written communication, but I can be a jerk, and I know it. Try as I might to contain it, it still seeps out... so there's that.) Some of the private answers included that we need to be more approachable to newcomers and perhaps be more proactive by letting them know who is available to help them, and helping guide them in their studies. As it currently stands we're basically passive in our interactions; we reply when someone comes to us. One of the private answers complains about this.

Perhaps it's our approach that comes off as negative, not because we intend to be. Such as correcting people's Na’vi. (Recall the answer to "Other thoughts and comments about the community" that mentions "correction contests" and "who gets to smite the n00b first.") On one hand, correcting mistakes can help people learn, but it can also carry a "you did it WRONG" feeling that's very discouraging. If whenever someone makes a post in Na’vi their post/thread is suddenly swarmed with "correction replies," I can see how that seems mean.

Maybe it's a matter of emphasis. People like to know when they're doing well and have accomplished something, but if we're only pointing out mistakes perhaps it seems like they're only ever "doing everything wrong." Do we place such a great effort in correcting people, but not enough in appreciating what they wrote and just replying to them? Perhaps we need to consider methods of teaching that avoid having to make corrections?

I dunno. We could have a whole discussion about this point alone.

I retain the proposition of praticing the Na'vi culture. We don't know everything about it, but we can do something.
This community has still a lot to do regarding the Na'vi language and culture.
For a lot of people the language and the Na’vi people/culture go together, so a bigger focus on the Na’vi would give meaning to learning the language. We don't know much, but I think we should emphasize what we do know, and especially the things that people like.

I sincerely thank you for making this survey that I support since the beginning (despite of the comments).
I'm glad you like it. :) I hope some good comes of it.
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Offline Kame Ayyo’koti

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2015, 01:57:42 pm »
In general, I notice that some people describe the community as elitist / a bunch of people who pretend to know a lot about the language. On the other hand, there are people who want to be taught more. This leaves me confused in general. You can't teach someone without knowing a lot about the subject, right? Am I interpreting this incorrectly?
"Elitist" means more "I know everything/I'm smart, and you know nothing/you're stupid." Giving someone knowledge isn't elitist. Making a big deal out of how much we know, or the fact that we're "better at it" than they are, is. It's a matter of friendliness.
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Offline Ikralulukan

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2015, 01:59:44 pm »
I agree with Tirea. I'm very sad about some of the responses as well. I know that I'm not very active here, but I still feel like a part of the community. It seems as if the community has split over the years since the film's release. The ones that are left have formed their own groups and people who are new to the community don't know where to go or who to talk to. I know that it's been a long time since Avatar came out and people are losing interest, but I feel that if we gave people a reason they should be here... give the others a reason they should come back and give the new ones a reason to stay and enjoy, we would be able to make this place where everyone wants to be.


IMHO, if we(myself included) acted more like a community/family and dropped a lot of the hostility/elitest attitudes, people would be more inclined to want to learn. This is supposed to be a family. Not an exclusive club.

As for teaching, learning a language comes naturally to some people, but not to others. Telling someone they are wrong doesn't teach them anything. It makes them feel less significant and excluded. If someone forgets to add -l and/or -ti, don't say, "You are wrong. Nice try." Instead, help them figure out the mistake and let them correct it.

Example:

Someone says, "Oe taron nga." Don't say, "No. You're wrong." or "You are incorrect." (Tone is everything, BTW)
Say something like, "Well, the word 'taron' means to hunt. Which is what kind of verb...? Transitive, and with transitive verbs, we have things that signify who's doing what. Who hunts who?" Try to help them figure out what the correct answer is.

Again, I'm not here to tell people what to do. These are just some things that I have seen and my own opinion on the matter. Tone and friendliness is key. Treat others like you want to be treated. We're all here together. Thanks for compiling the surveys ma Kame Ayyo'koti sì Tstewa Ikrantsyìp.   :)

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2015, 02:03:04 pm »
Perhaps it's our approach that comes off as negative, not because we intend to be. Such as correcting people's Na’vi. (Recall the answer to "Other thoughts and comments about the community" that mentions "correction contests" and "who gets to smite the n00b first.") On one hand, correcting mistakes can help people learn, but it can also carry a "you did it WRONG" feeling that's very discouraging. If whenever someone makes a post in Na’vi their post/thread is suddenly swarmed with "correction replies," I can see how that seems mean.

Maybe it's a matter of emphasis. People like to know when they're doing well and have accomplished something, but if we're only pointing out mistakes perhaps it seems like they're only ever "doing everything wrong." Do we place such a great effort in correcting people, but not enough in appreciating what they wrote and just replying to them?

I think that you are so on point with all this. ^

Quote
Perhaps we need to consider methods of teaching that avoid having to make corrections?

At least methods that minimize it to where it is totally necessary. I think it's possible to do it without actively correcting. I think that most people are intelligent enough, that if they see all the other people using certain words and phrases in a way that differs from theirs, it causes them to question what they're doing, if it's correct. That doubt will usually lead them to ask and maybe that's when the explanation is due -- when it's asked for.

Interesting things. :D

In general, I notice that some people describe the community as elitist / a bunch of people who pretend to know a lot about the language. On the other hand, there are people who want to be taught more. This leaves me confused in general. You can't teach someone without knowing a lot about the subject, right? Am I interpreting this incorrectly?
"Elitist" means more "I know everything/I'm smart, and you know nothing/you're stupid." Giving someone knowledge isn't elitist. Making a big deal out of how much we know, or the fact that we're "better at it" than they are, is. It's a matter of friendliness.

Yeah. I can see, in some threads this kind of thing emerge. It's that vibe of "I'm the authority. You're wrong." which is ever repeated.  Why never this: "Hey! Nice! :D *reply to keep thread going*" and if the beginner asked already "Is this right?" then reply with "Almost entirely! Just one little nit: X. That's because Y." (where X and Y are brief and friendly)

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2015, 02:08:12 pm »
I agree with Tirea.
:D

Quote
I know that I'm not very active here, but I still feel like a part of the community.

Welcome back! And thanks for adding your opinions!

Quote
It seems as if the community has split over the years since the film's release. The ones that are left have formed their own groups and people who are new to the community don't know where to go or who to talk to. I know that it's been a long time since Avatar came out and people are losing interest, but I feel that if we gave people a reason they should be here... give the others a reason they should come back and give the new ones a reason to stay and enjoy, we would be able to make this place where everyone wants to be.

IMHO, if we(myself included) acted more like a community/family and dropped a lot of the hostility/elitest attitudes, people would be more inclined to want to learn. This is supposed to be a family. Not an exclusive club.

As for teaching, learning a language comes naturally to some people, but not to others. Telling someone they are wrong doesn't teach them anything. It makes them feel less significant and excluded. If someone forgets to add -l and/or -ti, don't say, "You are wrong. Nice try." Instead, help them figure out the mistake and let them correct it.
On point.

Quote
(Tone is everything, BTW)
Quote
Tone and friendliness is key. Treat others like you want to be treated. We're all here together.
SO on point.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 02:40:16 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2015, 02:22:37 pm »
Quote from: Kame Ayyo’koti
Many comments were positive, and keep in mind that about 2/3 of the people had positive answers to "How do you feel about the people in the community?"
I agree that we shouldn't make a drama with it, but it points out some flaws we have with some people. If we could have a satisfaction rate of 90-95%, it would be great.
Also, we get the opinion of the more experienced LN members, so there's some influence in the results.

Quote from: Ikralulukan
Someone says, "Oe taron nga." Don't say, "No. You're wrong." or "You are incorrect."
Better: The sentence is correct, except for one thing or two.

Offline Kame Ayyo’koti

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2015, 02:46:57 pm »
The thought occurs to me: Why do we even correct mistakes? I'm sure the answer would be, "Because that's how people learn," and it no doubt can be.

But is that the only way people can learn?

It isn't. It isn't how I learned. Finding my own mistakes is necessary for knowing what I need to learn/improve, but it isn't how I've learned. (Or in other words finding mistakes lets me know what I'm doing wrong, but isn't how I fix it.)

If some people don't benefit by being "taught by correction," then we should ask them whether they want to be corrected. Perhaps they could put a note in their sigs or something.
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Offline Wllìm

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2015, 02:50:41 pm »
But that is how all forums work - someone writes question, and when someone able to answer log in, writes answer. I never expected my question to be answered at once [...]

I think the point is more that people always have to come to the forum to stay involved with learning the language. So it is always: the learner asks a question and gets an answer on the forum (or on IRC / TS / ...). It is never the other way round: the forum doesn't really challenge learners by exercises, questions, riddles, challenges, or things like that. So the interaction only comes from one side. That is bad for keeping people involved...

Learning languages is quite special discipline, which (IMHO) needs many corrections to get good result, otherwise you get mix of your native language with language being learnt.

Personally, I think that the small corrections are not necessary for language learning. If someone makes a mistake a few times, chances are that it is just a typo or a small oversight, and the learner will correct him/herself later. On the other hand, like you say, the general corrections definitely are useful, but I am in doubt myself whether we should do that in PM or in the thread itself... :-\

If some people don't benefit by being "taught by correction," then we should ask them whether they want to be corrected. Perhaps they could put a note in their sigs or something.

That would be a great idea. Currently I like to be corrected about everything because I know the basic grammar rules now, so when I break one, I may start learning it incorrectly. When I was a beginner, I wouldn't have liked the continuous correction :)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 02:54:05 pm by Wllìm »
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