Author Topic: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey  (Read 4859 times)

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Offline Kame Ayyo’koti

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2015, 03:10:38 pm »
But that is how all forums work - someone writes question, and when someone able to answer log in, writes answer.
This isn't a matter of software, this is a matter of interaction. It's one thing to welcome someone to the community, point them in the direction of learning materials, say, "Alright, good luck have fun!" then sit back and wait until they speak up.
It's another to welcome someone, give them suggestions of what they can do (for example: study on their own, join a learning/study group, enter a course designed by one of our members, find a mentor or study partner, etc.), ask them what they'd like to do or try, and check up on them every now and then.

The first is very aloof and "you're on your own." The second is actively inclusive and doesn't wait for people to reach out to us first.

This is very hard point - where is balance between correcting and annoying people? IMHO even small mistakes should be corrected, otherwise one learn thing incorrectly and it's hard to relearn them, but generally something can be "corrected generally" (like: be careful with i and ì, it makes difference, like si and sì - not rewriting all these small mistakes. Learner can find them yourself with such comment).
This is a difficult issue, and we should investigate it in depth. As I said in an earlier post corrections may not be beneficial or even necessary. If some people don't enjoy "learning by correction" we can teach them in ways that don't involve correction.

Exactly. When we want to teach, we should have some learning plan and methodology, but who has experience to be teacher and can create something like that?
You've said something like this before, and each time you say it, to me you make it sound like we need a degree just to teach anyone anything. I've learned plenty of things in my life without going to a university and getting a PhD in it. I've figured out effective methods of teaching myself correct Na’vi by studying what's available to me. Other people in this community have done the same.

If I can learn to teach myself these things, then certainly I can learn to teach others these things. Whatever I don't know now I can learn by reading, studying, and experience. Ever since the idea for this survey came to mind I've been reading and thinking about better ways to teach people this language.
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2015, 05:17:40 pm »
I have read the study and there are indeed some points that makes me sad reading it. As for the putting-people-down attitude, maybe I am also guilty of that. If so, I am very sorry about that. Also, it was never my intention to be so.

Many things were mentioned here, and I am agree with Plumps (Reply #48) and Tirea Aean (Reply #52).

Third, we need to stop making ninja public-shaming posts and grammar-nazi clutter in chat threads. PMs with quick kind words of advice could do the trick, but what if everyone has that same idea?
There is a way: keep an eye on the [X Members and X Guests are viewing this topic.] in the header of a topic. When you see 1 member, for example, wait a bit untill s/he has posted. Or, if one was faster, usually one get a waring that a post has been posted and you may wish to read it (works if one has it enabled).
SMF allows also to change it into "1 member -> Tìtstewan is viewing this topic", but I doubt this will be activated because of the LEP area... And if it is necessary, check the "Who is online" page, one can totaly see who is posting.

Also, Crash course to terms needs a heck of an update and rewrite for non-linguist laymen.
If you mean that Crash Course in Linguistic Terminology, I have removed it from the learning material thread. One should remove it also from the /media page on the website. A new one is already in work if I understood you correctly.

Perhaps it's our approach that comes off as negative, not because we intend to be. Such as correcting people's Na’vi. (Recall the answer to "Other thoughts and comments about the community" that mentions "correction contests" and "who gets to smite the n00b first.") On one hand, correcting mistakes can help people learn, but it can also carry a "you did it WRONG" feeling that's very discouraging. If whenever someone makes a post in Na’vi their post/thread is suddenly swarmed with "correction replies," I can see how that seems mean.
This could be true. But when I look at my older threads I did, like my attempt to translate the song "A Horse With No Name", I got corrections, but in my case, it was rather a "correction discussion". I haven't had the feeling that the corrections carry the message like "you did it WRONG" in a way that would let me dislike the community. Of course, I was dissapointed to see so many mistakes, but I always knew that want to know if I did it right. And I learned much by that way. Not to mention that this is how I saw things. Other people may see that completely differently.

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Perhaps we need to consider methods of teaching that avoid having to make corrections?
At least methods that minimize it to where it is totally necessary. I think it's possible to do it without actively correcting. I think that most people are intelligent enough, that if they see all the other people using certain words and phrases in a way that differs from theirs, it causes them to question what they're doing, if it's correct. That doubt will usually lead them to ask and maybe that's when the explanation is due -- when it's asked for.
But the risk is, it could go in a wrong direction with stopping corrections. People could think, other does not pay attention or think it is correct what they wrote. Also, it depend on what kind of discussion is ongoing.

----

1.25 How difficult is it to find learning materials?
The results of this question surprised me, especially that some people have chosen 2 and 3.

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Offline Plumps

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2015, 11:22:33 am »
The thought occurs to me: Why do we even correct mistakes? I'm sure the answer would be, "Because that's how people learn," and it no doubt can be.

But is that the only way people can learn?

It isn't. It isn't how I learned. Finding my own mistakes is necessary for knowing what I need to learn/improve, but it isn't how I've learned. (Or in other words finding mistakes lets me know what I'm doing wrong, but isn't how I fix it.)

That’s an interesting point I became aware of when I started the Audio Chat Thread. The thing that amazed me (for the short time it lived) was that people really used it for communication but didn’t correct mistakes (sometimes obvious, sometimes not so obvious ones) purely because it was a speaking situation.

People tend to correct when it’s a written text. In normal conversational situations you won’t correct your dialogue partner all the time. If you understand what they want to say you accept it and probably will repeat what they said or use similar wording that is correct. But otherwise get the conversation along because in speaking, correcting can be so tedious.

That’s what I thought was so remarkable about the Audio Chat Thread. It was a chat. At one point or other, all the other chat threads have been distracted by correction nit-picking and butcher every sentence. This way there can’t be a discussion or chat.


If some people don't benefit by being "taught by correction," then we should ask them whether they want to be corrected. Perhaps they could put a note in their sigs or something.

I think that has been tried at one point in one of the chat threads.



I think Wllìm’s idea about weekly activities is a great idea! Probably similar to parts of an activity book but instead of compiling it all at once, little parts could be deviced from week to week. Like an online course and for those who can’t participate in a study group.
One would have to think about how to get about it… :-\

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2015, 08:00:05 pm »
I would like to talk about the progress. 14 people don't make enough progress (levels 1 and 2) and 12 others make moderate progress (level 3).

I think a better way of teaching and the suggestions for the learning materials will certainly help. Anything else?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 08:11:59 pm by Vawmataw »

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2015, 08:09:59 pm »
I would like to talk about the progress.

Progress... If people are being nothing but corrected and shown mistakes, they will feel as though they are never making progress, and mess up no matter what they do.  If people get praise/encouragement/positive response in quantities greater than the showing of problems/mistakes/errors/incorrectness, progress feels constant and positive. I think it's a psychological thing where some or much of it results from the approach the 'teachers' are taking, which as it stands is mostly on a corrections basis.

I'm starting to think that one of the best means of getting people to feel progress is to chat with them, get them excited to use Na'vi in simple little sentences back and forth, and make them feel good and confident about doing this, and responding with your own correct Na'vi. (I think I said about this earlier here) There's a really fragile balance I notice: Too much praise or over-enthusiastic praise causes a condescending vibe. Too little or no praise causes a vibe of lacking progress. Too much correction causes a vibe of hopelessness, and sparing asked-for correction causes closure/knowledge and further confidence.

These are my observations/ideas so far on that.

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I think a better way of teaching and the suggestions for the learning materials will certainly help. Anything else?

I think so too.  I definitely think a much more positive approach to teaching is much needed. (I'm working on this too.)

As for docs, I'm working on that Quickstart Guide, it's due to be out within the next week or two. I'll open a thread for that explaining what it is and to provide a place where people can voice their opinions and corrections if the document contains errors.

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Offline Alyara Arati

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2015, 08:24:34 pm »
Regarding the negative comments, I have to say that I, too, am very sad, but not terribly surprised. :(

When I started a beginners' conversation thread, everyone felt that it was not needed, but they were quite prompt in pursuing abstruse discussions on which correction was the most correct once a beginner did make a statement. >:(

It got to the point that I left, and abandoned my care of the thread because it made me so sad and sick to see this happening, even after I had repeatedly tried to keep the thread responses kind and on course. :'(

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2015, 08:39:06 pm »
@Tirea Oh yes, the positive approach. Very important.


I think Wllìm’s idea about weekly activities is a great idea! Probably similar to parts of an activity book but instead of compiling it all at once, little parts could be deviced from week to week. Like an online course and for those who can’t participate in a study group.
One would have to think about how to get about it… :-\

Nice idea.
Active people: check.
We just have to make sure there's always one or two people working on that. It would not be fun if it was interrupted during a month.
Otherwise it's doable and it will help.

Regarding the negative comments, I have to say that I, too, am very sad, but not terribly surprised. :(

When I started a beginners' conversation thread, everyone felt that it was not needed, but they were quite prompt in pursuing abstruse discussions on which correction was the most correct once a beginner did make a statement. >:(

It got to the point that I left, and abandoned my care of the thread because it made me so sad and sick to see this happening, even after I had repeatedly tried to keep the thread responses kind and on course. :'(

This is how I feel; let the attacks on my opinions begin...
I wonder why we did this without realizing it also brang negative consequences. The correction really kills the discussion.
The most important is that now we are learning from our mistakes and it's not too late.

What Plumps says about the audio chat is true. We have to review our correction manners...
The systematic correction is probably not the very good manner. Maybe we could underline the incorrect part and let the person correct it, but sometimes the beginner just doesn't know how to say something. Anyway, if we always say it's not entirely correct, we do not encourage the learners. We have to teach the part they fail. The exceptions could be the poetry, the songs and the projects.

I think we should establish a guideline. I will write an idea.

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2015, 09:06:34 pm »
Regarding the negative comments, I have to say that I, too, am very sad, but not terribly surprised. :(

When I started a beginners' conversation thread, everyone felt that it was not needed, but they were quite prompt in pursuing abstruse discussions on which correction was the most correct once a beginner did make a statement. >:(

It got to the point that I left, and abandoned my care of the thread because it made me so sad and sick to see this happening, even after I had repeatedly tried to keep the thread responses kind and on course. :'(

This is how I feel; let the attacks on my opinions begin...

No attacks here. You are seriously on point. I can see it in the thread with my own eyes. :(

@Tirea Oh yes, the positive approach. Very important.
:D

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I wonder why we did this without realizing it also brang negative consequences. The correction really kills the discussion.

The sad truth is, I don't think that the people who ninja attack with corrections (I used to be the king of it back in the day *guilt extreme*) know how it looks or feels to be on the receiving end of that.  Now, we see clearly how horrible it is.

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The most important is that now we are learning from our mistakes and it's not too late.

It surely explains why this place is sort of empty. It isn't really ever too late, but I'm afraid for maybe at least a couple people out there it might be too late. (unless they see somehow that we are underway in making reforms here)

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What Plumps says about the audio chat is true. We have to review our correction manners...
The systematic correction is probably not the very good manner.
Srane

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Maybe we could underline the incorrect part and let the person correct it, but sometimes the beginner just doesn't know how to say something.

I think one big failure in our approach is that we assume that just because someone has just started learning the language, they are likely somehow incompetent and cannot think for themselves. Beginner does not equal dumb.  I think that's where these comments about condescending tone come from, I think.  Maybe if a beginner asked for corrections specifically, or asks, "Is this right?" I think then would be the time for a nice (and simple) reply to answer the question.

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Anyway, if we always say it's not entirely correct, we do not encourage the learners. We have to teach the part they fail. The exceptions could be the poetry, the songs and the projects.

The thing is, I guess that as soon as we notice the fail, that doesn't make it the time and place to point it out and derail the thread for it. I think that if the person sees everyone else's posts use that word or affix differently than they do, they'll ask a question about if they're doing it right -- when someone gives a quick reply to answer the question saying not quite, this is this way, just because of this. (if that makes sense)

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I think we should establish a guideline. I will write an idea.
If that's necessary. (I guess it is, at least for now)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 09:10:44 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2015, 09:23:21 pm »
A guideline like this?

Quote
Finally, this thread is slanted towards beginners, and is meant to provide an environment which is conducive to learning.  Be patient regarding your own limitations, and especially with the mistakes of others.  No one can learn without making errors; we were all beginners once.  Please be kind as well as helpful, and remember that there is always more than one way to phrase something in Na'vi.  "Translate the meaning, not the words."  In order to avoid the spread of misinformation, however, if you are not sure of the accuracy of your corrections, state clearly that this is only what you believe to be right.  Additionally, this is not the proper place for debating fine or obscure points of grammar.  Once again, let me stress that no one should expect perfection, but everyone is entitled to respect and courtesy.  Have fun!

edit: bold added later...
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 09:37:27 pm by Alyara Arati »
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #69 on: July 22, 2015, 09:28:43 pm »
A guideline like this?

Quote
Finally, this thread is slanted towards beginners, and is meant to provide an environment which is conducive to learning.  Be patient regarding your own limitations, and especially with the mistakes of others.  No one can learn without making errors; we were all beginners once.  Please be kind as well as helpful, and remember that there is always more than one way to phrase something in Na'vi.  "Translate the meaning, not the words."  In order to avoid the spread of misinformation, however, if you are not sure of the accuracy of your corrections, state clearly that this is only what you believe to be right.  Additionally, this is not the proper place for debating fine or obscure points of grammar.  Once again, let me stress that no one should expect perfection, but everyone is entitled to respect and courtesy.  Have fun!

Ah, yes that.

Key words,
Quote
Once again, let me stress that no one should expect perfection, but everyone is entitled to respect and courtesy.  Have fun!

I'm definitely going to re-read that entire post and if I ever post in there again, be sure to live and post by that.

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2015, 09:29:57 pm »
I'm currently writing a long guideline on Word. XD I think that in the end, we will spread the same word.

You will find the word ''learner''/''student'' and not ''beginner'' (except once).
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 09:36:59 pm by Vawmataw »

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2015, 09:33:07 pm »
That's sounds amazing to me. compassionate. kind. patient. everything a beginner needs.
this progress will help the community.
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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2015, 01:49:05 am »
Well, for those people who remember that PM discussions round 1 1/2 years back, will see some parallels here. Some of mentioned critique are not really new. There was talked about the same thing, that "not ideal behavoir" with beginners.
Also the kind of discussions in the beginner chat thread was discussed, like recent example:
As one can see, it is simple a grammar rule discussion started by the fact that Na'vi has some exceptions. But what should we do with that in future? Deleting it? Split it out?
Preventing it? Options/ideas?
This is not always bad, since a beginner can see that also the "masters" aren't perfect. Sure, it should not become a larger discussion in a beginner chat, but just saying...

Regaring the audio thread(s), the main reason why beginners don't get correction there is, one can't simply correct it. One can't quote and edit to point out the mistakes, but written as text one can.
I am for it to continue a discussion without corrections, except the author want a correction (probably with starting a separate thread with a link to the original post?).

----

As for the guideline, I have mentioned in a TS discussion, if necessary, I am going to edit the Beginner Forum Etiquette or rewrite it completely.

----

Regaring teaching, we should teach the beginner only stuff we know. Questions about unknown grammar should be avoided to prevent grammmar discussions which scare people.

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #73 on: July 23, 2015, 01:56:24 am »
Has anybody noticed the division within the forum between 'beginners' and 'advanced' persons?
I know it has a reason the be divided, but it does cause more damage, then we'd expect.
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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #74 on: July 23, 2015, 08:50:14 am »
A short guideline is useful, but not necessarily complete.

Quote
The learners (actually everyone) make mistakes. It’s normal, we always make mistakes when we learn. Remember that we were all beginners once. They will learn and ameliorate by the time by consulting the material, reading our sentences, asking questions, interacting with us, etc. Also, the rate of learning is different for everyone.

Some might want to help the students by correcting the mistakes. Some want them to learn from their mistakes. However, it doesn’t necessarily happen like this.

We have got complaints about members who ‘’rush’’ to correct the texts. This attitude of correcting systematically can be negative and unhelpful. It can also turn threads into correction threads, which kills not only the idea and the conversation, but also the pleasure for some people.
Additionally, by correcting in a ‘ninja’ or ‘grammar Na’zi’ manner, we do not leave enough time to them to realize their (minor) mistakes or to ask questions about the text they just wrote. Why not just do like in the audio chat thread?

We need to find a friendlier approach to the students.
The method we want to establish is to actually help them with the more difficult parts of the language instead of just correcting.

We should observe the evolution of the students, then intervene to correct one or two things at a time. Still, there’s an acceptable way to correct, without making the people feel they’re really wrong.

It is recommended to not correct immediately whenever there’s a mistake. That little forgotten accusative doesn’t require immediate attention, unless the rule is regularly forgotten. As for the beginning students, it is probably more appropriate to not correct yet, just help them to make sentences. The exceptions are the poetry, the stories, the projects, the learning materials and the demand of a person.

Avoid to make your grammar analysis in the threads. A simple PM can suffice and you can help the person without deviating the thread. Teach the part of the language in which the student is mistaken. Do not haveAt the end of the message, it would be nice to invite the student to ask questions if he/she didn't understand something.
It is important to keep a good attitude. A good attitude means to be friendly, courteous, kind and respectful.
Positiveness and helpfulness are the keys. It is great that the students try to speak Na'vi. We must encourage them.

By the way, if you have any doubt about your correction, you can consult a reference, ask another member or simply tell the student what you are sure of.

You are free to follow or not these recommendations. If you have a better or similarly good method, feel free to use it.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 09:24:46 am by Vawmataw »

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #75 on: July 23, 2015, 04:09:22 pm »
Has anybody noticed the division within the forum between 'beginners' and 'advanced' persons?
I know it has a reason the be divided, but it does cause more damage, then we'd expect.

Oh yes, indeed it does!  I think it is part of the basis for the "cliquishness" noted in the survey.  And there is the feeling that you will never be fully accepted unless you can cross that barrier (largely by yourself; good luck to you.)  Or perhaps I am reading things into the responses....  My own will be paraphrased, because I took the survey early.
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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #76 on: July 23, 2015, 04:13:19 pm »
And there is the feeling that you will never be fully accepted unless you can cross that barrier (largely by yourself; good luck to you.)

Doing what I can to see to it that this ends SFSZ.

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #77 on: July 23, 2015, 04:22:23 pm »
And there is the feeling that you will never be fully accepted unless you can cross that barrier (largely by yourself; good luck to you.)

Doing what I can to see to it that this ends SFSZ.
We need a chat between members or ''buddies'', not between the teachers and the students.

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #78 on: July 23, 2015, 04:26:41 pm »
Srane. We are all people and I believe that we are all intelligent here. I think we are all equal and like a family. That's the vibe I wish to find everywhere on LN. :)

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Offline Tstewa Ikrantsyìp

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Re: The Unofficial Na’vi Learner Survey
« Reply #79 on: July 23, 2015, 06:42:59 pm »
Kaltxì ma frapo

Recently (between 7 and 12 days ago) I tried an experiment concerning this very serious matter, since I was aware of this due to early study of the survey replies. .
I experimented in comparing teachers and their methods. I apologise for not telling my teachers previously, but I needed them to be answered honestly, and with the same attitude that they would normally do so, because if you knew, you might change how you acted.

In this experiment I tried to same conversation, beginners and questions, with the same (purposely done) mistakes to multiple different teachers. the two situations below are the extremest of cases I experienced.

As most of you know, I've recently begun learning Na'vi. and while I have already found the path the best suits me, I decided to try other paths as well, I was even more curious when this topic begun to be discussed.

Conversation:
Me: "I set myself a series of questions to answer in Na'vi and I was wondering if you could tell me how I've done and whether anything needs correcting.
Oeru syaw Tstewa Ikrantsyìp
Oeru so'lalew zìsìt a vomune ulte kìnä
Za'u oe ftu Australia
Oe lu 'ewän tsmuke
Oe lu kllvawme nikrre ulte ean menari
Oe lu Wendy'ite ulte Dave'ite
Oe lu tsìng tsmuke slä 'a'w lu ke'rusey

before I say anything else, I want everyone to know, that yes, I did actually try these questions because I wanted to know how to answer them, it was a two-fold situation.

...........................
when I got replies from both teachers, I compared. And I was shocked! I will not be quoting either teacher, but I will be explaining the situation. I want both teachers to know, that I am sorry, and that I completely appreciate your continued help with me in my learning and that this comparison is simply for study reasons, to explain this subject, which I believe warrants it. I apologise for any offense made.
teacher #1
when I got the reply from these questions from the first teacher, I was to say the least, upset. while their intentions were for the best, I certainly feel, had ai just started in the community, barely days old in the forum, I would have certainly left.

what they did first was separated each sentence and gave me a series of dot points, all of which, were the things I had done wrong, how I had done them wrong, and the corrections. which they made ample sure to emphasise, so that the mistake was not repeated.

my teacher then proceeded, (at length) to converse with me about the correct way to go through each sentence. they then suggested that I strongly apply myself to learning in memrise, Anki and other activities such as flash-cards for several weeks, before I attempted something so "temporarily beyond my grasp"

they then explained that if I were to study and try again that they would be more then happy to correct them when, not if, when I got them wrong and that it was ok, not to be able to learn them so quickly, and everybody had different levels of talent and ability. while their intentions were in the best area,
I'm sorry to this teacher for, I felt I was being talked down to like that of a child and quickly had to log off, save I say something I would regret.

I was then (when I returned) referenced several materials, edited and marked so I would know where to look, and the different methods that could be useful, for someone of my study level.
................................................. .......
teacher #2

this teacher went through the list, and with edits, simply crossed out the wrong letters and replaced them with the correct terms.
for each sentence there was an explanation, with suggestions and examples. I found myself a lot more comfortable with this teachers corrections, despite still having the feeling of 'inability'

when I approached them again with questions about their explanations for some of the sentences, a patient explanation, plus extra examples and suggestions were given.

this teacher explained to me, when I got frustrated at any point of his explanations, or my mistakes within my sentences, told me that not everybody learned the same way and that different methods were useful for different learners.

this teacher then explained the different levels of the forum, what areas included what, and how they could help or not help in my learning, warning me to take my time and have fun, but at least try to push my limits.

I found this method of teaching, extremely comforting. at no point did I feel condescended to, insulted or embarrassed.

this teacher then proceeded to explain what worked for him and why, the advantages but also the disadvantages and concluded by making me aware that while Na'vi was a rewarding language and well worth the effort, a large amount of effort and determination would be involved if I truly wanted to learn and be part of the community.
.................................

I'd like each of you to compare and choose for yourselves the flaws and advantages of this and decide for yourselves, which method of teaching suited better.
again I apologise for any offense caused, but I believed the subject too serious too ignore, but I had seen nothing of this issue myself and so needed to see whether this situation was as bad as it seemed.


Ta Tstewa
Mega - Na'vi - Booklet - Project (One Book to Rule Them All)
Unofficial Na'vi survey
Na'vi - Sign - Language - Project

Na'vi - Language - Book - Project

 

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