Author Topic: Allophony in Na'vi ('Oma Tireayä guide to translating loanwords)  (Read 5677 times)

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Offline Carborundum

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Re: Allophony in Na'vi
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2010, 01:12:30 pm »
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Allophony in Na'vi
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2010, 09:39:53 pm »
Whats this? ???
A necropost.
Sran.  Ma Jameso, did you read the first post?  All the main information is there.
[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Allophony in Na'vi
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2010, 03:18:44 am »
Long time no see this thread, kefyak?

I was actually wondering if there's any general rule for the allophony of the plosives.

Here's the loanword cases from both http://masempul.org/ and the current dictionary:

b → p: 5
d → t: 4
g → k: 1
b → px: 1
d → tx: 0
g → kx: 0
g → ng: 1
ng → g: 2
p → px: 1
t → tx: 0
k → kx: 4
p remaining the same: 5
t remaining the same: 6
k remaining the same: 3

From this it is becoming clearer that both voiced and voiceless plosives cross-linguistically will become just p, t, and k.  Occasionally, a plosive, voiced or not, will become ejective, however, k seems to be a split case....

One thing is quite clear: any ng sequence pronounced something like {ŋg} will simply be softened to {ŋ}.

 
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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Allophony in Na'vi
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2010, 03:16:31 am »
Hmm... now starting to wonder if anything else out there such as the KXWERTY keyboard might have a little bit of influence on why b, d, and g might go to px, tx, and kx....

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Allophony in Na'vi
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2012, 11:49:33 pm »
~ B U M P ! ~

Tse, now for another question regarding loanword/name respelling and case endings.

Sometimes a word will have an ì on the end because it's necessary (e.g. Tsyìräfì).  Does this ì disappear in certain case markings, namely -ä, and sometimes -ur and -it?  If I'm not mistaken we have a canon example of this happening.  However this may require some clarification from Karyu Pawl.

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Offline Ikran Ahiyìk

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Re: Allophony in Na'vi ('Oma Tireayä guide to translating loanwords)
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2012, 02:42:36 am »
However this may require some clarification from Karyu Pawl.
Definitely.

But one thing: is that canon example really some kind of confirmed text, or just a transcription from the audio? There's a chance for it to be written -ìyä but pronounced nearly or exactly -ä.
Plltxe nìhiyìk na ikran... oe fmeri sìltsan nì'ul slivu, ngaytxoa...


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Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Allophony in Na'vi ('Oma Tireayä guide to translating loanwords)
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2012, 04:34:59 am »
But one thing: is that canon example really some kind of confirmed text, or just a transcription from the audio? There's a chance for it to be written -ìyä but pronounced nearly or exactly -ä.
Text:

   Meuniltìrantokx Toktor Kìreysä sì Tsyeykä ke lu teng ki steng.


// Lance R. Casey

Offline Ikran Ahiyìk

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Re: Allophony in Na'vi ('Oma Tireayä guide to translating loanwords)
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2012, 10:20:47 am »
Irayo.










(and I should make some changes to something mine...)
Plltxe nìhiyìk na ikran... oe fmeri sìltsan nì'ul slivu, ngaytxoa...


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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Allophony in Na'vi ('Oma Tireayä guide to translating loanwords)
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2012, 11:20:59 pm »
Irayo.  Will update first post again.

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Offline Yawne Zize’ite

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Re: Allophony in Na'vi ('Oma Tireayä guide to translating loanwords)
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2012, 08:13:16 pm »
More necroposting, but this might be of interest to people trying to guess how some of English's rarer sounds will be borrowed into Naʼvi: http://accent.gmu.edu/index.php. It's an archive of a sample paragraph with most of the tricky sounds read by native speakers of dozens of languages, then transcribed. If you use the "search" function you can search for various common systematic mispronunciations of English. Stopping [θ ð] to [t̪ d̪] was overwhelmingly more common than substituting [s z] or [f v], and speakers who backed [θ] to [s͏] often stopped [ð] to [d̪].

To make it more complicated, though, loanwords don't follow the same rules as people mispronouncing English. Lee (2006) summarizes that Thai, Russian, Hungarian, Serbo-Croatian, Tagalog, Moroccan Arabic, Quebec French, and Xhosa use [t] for /θ/ in borrowed words while Japanese, German, Egyptian Arabic, and European French use [s͏]. I don't see a blindingly obvious correlation between languages that use dental [t̪] (e.g. French, Russian) versus alveolar [t] (e.g. English, German) in the list, or any correlation between loanword adaptations and historical sound changes (/θ/ -> /d/ in German, /θ/ -> /t/ in Moroccan and Cairene Arabic, /θ/ -> /f/ in Russian loanwords from Greek). Park (2007) studies Koreans picking the closest sound to initial /θ/ and they split 40% [s*], 24% [t*], 16% [ph], but /ð/ was matched to [t] by 78%. (Korean has few fricatives and no voiced sounds, so /f/ /v/ /z/ were not options.) However, at the end of a syllable, both /θ/ and /ð/ were matched to labial sounds ([ph] and [p] respectively) by a plurality of Koreans (Park 2007b). (In Korean, /s/ becomes [t] at the end of a syllable.)

So, my thoughts from this research:

[θ] (hard th) can become any of /t/ /s/ /f/ in decreasing order of probability; /t/ and /s/ are both common, but most languages favor one or the other. At the end of a syllable, /t/ and /p/ are both defensible, but I would favor /t/ because the existing loanwords from English have favored a spelling pronunciation.

[ð] (soft th) should be merged with [θ] due to the extreme rarity in words specialized enough to be worth borrowing and established preference for spelling pronunciations, but if needed ("the", etc.) /z/ and /t/ are the best renderings; I would favor /z/ because it matches /ð/ in both manner and voicing and isn't that far off in place. At the end of a syllable, treat as [θ].

Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Allophony in Na'vi ('Oma Tireayä guide to translating loanwords)
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2012, 09:21:13 pm »
Well, Chinglish ;D speakers stereotypically use /s/ for θ and /dz/ for /ð/ rather than stopping them.
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

 

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