Author Topic: Double glottal stop  (Read 1206 times)

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Offline Vawmataw

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Double glottal stop
« on: July 09, 2015, 09:32:26 am »
Now you're reading the title and you're saying ''hrhpeu?!''

Let's create an imaginary word:

'o''rr
The syllables are 'o' and 'rr. CVC + CP. Nothing is wrong.

  • Is it still legal? If it's not, how is it illegalized? If it is, would Karyu Pawl illegalize it?
  • Would the double glottal stop just merge?

Edit: This discussion is the continuation of the one I had with Tìtstewan on TS3 yesterday.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 09:50:19 am by Vawmataw »
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Double glottal stop
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2015, 09:39:12 am »
Quote
Is it still legal? If it's not, how is it illegalized? If it is, would Frommer illegalize it?

I think no. I don't remember any comments from Pawl, but I'm pretty sure that it's impossible.

Quote
Would the double glottal stop just merge?

Probably yes. The same thing happens with a + a, er + rr and ol + ll:

  a + apxa → apxa
  plltxe + ol → poltxe
  frrfen + er → frrfen

So I think 'o' + 'rr would be 'o'rr ;)
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Double glottal stop
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2015, 09:44:41 am »
Hmm... The idea behind this is, that there are two syllables that could make it possible to keep the letter like in ayyayo.

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Double glottal stop
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2015, 09:47:58 am »
I think the y is kept because it's essential as the plural marker.
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Offline Wllìm

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Re: Double glottal stop
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2015, 11:55:45 am »
As far as I know, double consonants are not permitted in words at all. Note that in ayyayo the first y is a part of a diphtong ay and hence doesn't count as a consonant.

Edit: oh wait, we still have slosneppe... ???
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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Double glottal stop
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2015, 11:57:56 am »
Quote
double consonants are not permitted in words at all
Except for rr and ll, but they count as pseudovowels.
2.1.4.4. Double consonants do not occur within root words, but may occur at morpheme boundaries,
for example in derivations, tsukkäteng < tsuk- + käteng, or with enclitics Mo’atta
Mo’at + ta (§2.1.5.3).

2.1.4.5. As is usual in most Human languages, some interjections break the rules, such as  oìsss,
a sound for anger, or saa, a threat cry.

Source: Horen leNa'vi

« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 04:03:52 pm by Vawmataw »
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Double glottal stop
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2015, 03:58:58 pm »
Quote
double consonants are not permitted in words at all
Except for rr and ll, but they count as pseudovowels.
2.1.4.4. Double consonants do not occur within root words, but may occur at morpheme boundaries,
for example in derivations, tsukkäteng < tsuk- + käteng, or with enclitics Mo’atta
Mo’at + ta (§2.1.5.3).

2.1.4.5. As is usual in most Human languages, some interjections break the rules, such as oìsss,
a sound for anger, or saa, a threat cry.

Source: Horen leNa'vi



In to say this. ^

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Double glottal stop
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2015, 10:56:36 am »
^

I just found also a blog comment by Pawl about this:

Pawl March 23, 2011 at 10:25 am
Irayo ma Plumps. Yes, it’s just tsukkäteng. In addition to your examples with -yu,
this kind of thing occurs a lot with adpositions: kinammì, ekxanne, Mo’atta, . . .
It’s only at morpheme boundaries that you get doubled consonants.


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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Double glottal stop
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2015, 03:36:22 am »
I'm not sure that the syllable break in ʼoʼʼrr is a morpheme boundary. Plus, pronouncing two successive glottal stops really isn't possible, especially in the constraints of the Naʼvi language. There are other consonants where pronouncing two successive consonants is possible. It should be possible with all vowels

One coining such a word would be smart to contract it to ʼo 'rr.

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Double glottal stop
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2015, 05:34:57 am »
I'm not sure that the syllable break in ʼoʼʼrr is a morpheme boundary. Plus, pronouncing two successive glottal stops really isn't possible, especially in the constraints of the Naʼvi language.

In the ‘constraints of Na’vi’ it isn’t but Klingon does it all the time.

I also agree that it would contract to a simple glottal stop in a root word. If there was a pre-/suffix with a glottal stop it would remain, same as the boundaries in kilvanne, Mo’atta sl.

Mìftxele, was it ever cleared what happens when we say “without sense” postpositionally? ralluke or ral-luke? Or “beside the drink”: naerrofa or naer-rofa:-\

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Double glottal stop
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2015, 05:50:38 am »

Mìftxele, was it ever cleared what happens when we say “without sense” postpositionally? ralluke or ral-luke? Or “beside the drink”: naerrofa or naer-rofa:-\
Ihmo, it remains still ralluke, because there will be not "suddenly" created a new pseudovowel. Such thing can't happen because a pseudovowel can't start with an vowel (ralluke, naerrofa).

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Double glottal stop
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2015, 10:15:53 am »

Mìftxele, was it ever cleared what happens when we say “without sense” postpositionally? ralluke or ral-luke? Or “beside the drink”: naerrofa or naer-rofa:-\
Ihmo, it remains still ralluke, because there will be not "suddenly" created a new pseudovowel. Such thing can't happen because a pseudovowel can't start with an vowel (ralluke, naerrofa).
^This.

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Double glottal stop
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2015, 10:25:08 am »
Well, I think the question was answered and I thank ye. :) Double glottals, double consonants in root words and even triple consonants are prohibited.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 10:29:50 am by Vawmataw »
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