Author Topic: Ejectives  (Read 30194 times)

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Offline mobman343

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2010, 08:59:23 pm »
Alright, so from what I understand for the tx, px, and kx ejectives, the website that i believe Frommer was quoted in, is that he said you pronounce the beggining letter such as t, p, or, k, and then the x serves as a popping noise, not found in the english language and was closely related to the african popping sound that you would make right after the letter. Hope this helps. please reply with further information.

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2010, 09:11:01 pm »
Alright, so from what I understand for the tx, px, and kx ejectives, the website that i believe Frommer was quoted in, is that he said you pronounce the beggining letter such as t, p, or, k, and then the x serves as a popping noise, not found in the english language and was closely related to the african popping sound that you would make right after the letter.

The ejectives really aren't like the clicks of the Khoisan languages, though they do have a quality that might lead one to think they are (the t-ejective, especially).  The 'x' does not indicate a particular sound, but says that the manner of articulation for the 'p', 't' or 'k' is special.

Here's me explaining to neosis about the glottal stop, and its relationship to the ejectives: Learn Ejectives with William.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2010, 01:02:38 pm »
px is pronounced as a stressed p, which in the pronounciation is represented by the p´ (so this only concerns the way you pronounce the letter, not the way you write it, since the written version is px),
and in the written language the ´ represents the gluttoral stop.

(but do correct me if I am wrong ma aysmukan si aysmuke:))

px is not a stressed p, it is an ejective p.

The IPA symbol for px is p' as an ejective p is a p voiced during a glottal stop, see the audio clip wm.annis posted, he's got them sounding brilliant.

So, if you're showing someone how to pronounce a word using the IPA then p' is correct, otherwise px is correct.
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Offline Eywa ngahu

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2010, 02:15:15 pm »
oh ye you are right, sry about that WillowFox
and irayo kawng mungeyu :)

(my bad formulated it wrongly for some unknown reason i wrote stressed, when i meant ejective stop :S, but again irayo!!! for the correction kawng mungeyu :D)

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2010, 06:06:05 pm »
Ok, don't worry about it, everyone makes mistakes, I just try to make sure people who don't know better think they're right.
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Offline Eywa ngahu

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2010, 07:11:05 pm »
hmm but better to catch it in the uptake, ensures that most of us does not make the same mistakes over and over again :)
(this one could have evolved even though it began as a simple typing mistake (oel längu skxawng when doing such things ;), who knows when i would have used it and suddenly thought: what did i write to WillowFox when he asked, so again:
irayo ulte kíevame ma smukan) :)

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2010, 10:55:46 am »
As far as I know there hasn't been a resolution about the choppiness of ejectives in Na'vi (in some languages it is very choppy with a full pause afterwards whilst in others it is very smooth).

This interview was recently posted in a thread about initial ng-s but in it Frommer says that the vowel should come as soon after the ejective as possible. So we have our solution, they should not be choppy and should flow naturally.
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Offline Doolio

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2010, 02:22:57 pm »
okay, i addressed this same thing just a minute ago in the 'kaltxì' thread:)
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Offline Txon Taronyu

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2010, 07:56:08 pm »
Is an X a click
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2010, 08:31:36 pm »
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Kìte'eyä Aungia

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2010, 09:32:00 pm »
Is an X a click

No, the x indicates an ejective consonant. The Na'vi px, tx, and kx are the ejectives p', t', and k' in IPA. There are instructions and audio examples earlier in this thread.

Offline Brainiac

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2010, 03:31:33 am »
Like doctor Frommer says it: try to say the consonant (p, k, t) as loud as you can without using the air in your lungs. That's the sound you're going for.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2010, 10:20:04 am »
Is an X a click

It should be a slightly popping sound.

I like the audio clip of wm.annis explaining it (it taught me), it can be found here.
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Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2010, 11:20:47 pm »
I've added a section to the Pronunciation Guidance page on the Learn Na'vi wiki (http://wiki.learnnavi.org/) covering the glottal stop and ejectives.  I've added some of the advice and suggestions from this thread to that page.

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Offline tawway

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2010, 11:11:15 pm »
Something like this with the sounds a little exaggerated?

px: poP

tx: can'T

kx: skunK



Offline Erimeyz

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2010, 11:53:27 pm »
Something like this with the sounds a little exaggerated?

px: poP

tx: can'T

kx: skunK


Maybe, but maybe not.  I believe the ends of those words are pronounced differently by different people under different circumstances.  Just observing myself, I notice I sometimes pronounce them as ejectives (using air from the glottis), sometimes aspirated (using air from the lungs), and sometimes tenuis (using no air at all).

I think the best advice I've seen so far on pronouncing ejectives comes from Paul Frommer (what a surprise).  "Hold your breath and make a T sound as loud as you can without breathing, and then add a vowel as quick as you can after it."

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Offline roger

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2010, 03:41:47 am »
As far as I know there hasn't been a resolution about the choppiness of ejectives in Na'vi (in some languages it is very choppy with a full pause afterwards whilst in others it is very smooth).

This interview was recently posted in a thread about initial ng-s but in it Frommer says that the vowel should come as soon after the ejective as possible. So we have our solution, they should not be choppy and should flow naturally.
Since Na'vi contrasts ejectives with plosives-plus-glottal stop, I think we have to go for the immediate release. AFAIK, languages in which ejectives have a particularly long VOT don't have such as contrast, and so can afford to be more ambiguous. In the case of Nambikwara, there is even disagreement over whether the px and tx are ejectives or plosive-plus-glottal stop. (Which, conveniently, is written x in Nambikwara anyway.)

For example, we have tsap’alute "apology" with p’, and Mo’at’ite with t’. (Granted, many of the actors in the film pronounce px and tx like that anyway!) Of course, the fact that (from what we understand) that p and t are unreleased helps with the distinction too.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 03:47:39 am by roger »

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2010, 12:04:14 pm »
Something like this with the sounds a little exaggerated?

px: poP

tx: can'T

kx: skunK

Using standard English pronounciation of those, no. A few people might eject them but in general those will be aspirated instead. See this clip to learn how to say them correctly.

As far as I know there hasn't been a resolution about the choppiness of ejectives in Na'vi (in some languages it is very choppy with a full pause afterwards whilst in others it is very smooth).

This interview was recently posted in a thread about initial ng-s but in it Frommer says that the vowel should come as soon after the ejective as possible. So we have our solution, they should not be choppy and should flow naturally.
Since Na'vi contrasts ejectives with plosives-plus-glottal stop, I think we have to go for the immediate release. AFAIK, languages in which ejectives have a particularly long VOT don't have such as contrast, and so can afford to be more ambiguous. In the case of Nambikwara, there is even disagreement over whether the px and tx are ejectives or plosive-plus-glottal stop. (Which, conveniently, is written x in Nambikwara anyway.)

For example, we have tsap’alute "apology" with p’, and Mo’at’ite with t’. (Granted, many of the actors in the film pronounce px and tx like that anyway!) Of course, the fact that (from what we understand) that p and t are unreleased helps with the distinction too.

The thing with those examples is that they aren't a plosive then glottal stop. When you split the syllables you get tsap.'alute (only marked the syllable break we know for certain) and mo'at.'ite so there's no way that the plosive then glottal stop could be an ejective. Because of this, that wasn't enough evidence for the unchopiness, the interview with Frommer is.
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Offline roger

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2010, 04:09:51 am »
so there's no way that the plosive then glottal stop could be an ejective.
Precisely my point. Na'vi evidently contrasts ejectives with plosives+glottal stop. If the ejectives were really soft, as they are in some language, that would be a difficult distinction to make.

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Re: Ejectives
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2010, 04:36:40 pm »
No but there is no distinction, for all we know, the kx could effectively be a consonant cluster k' and the only consonant clusters stops can lead are those with the second consonant being a glottal stop.

By soft I take it you mean smooth with them flowing into the vowels? That would go against Frommer's word, he said the vowel comes as soon after as possible, in other words it flows and should be soft.
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