Help on "oel" and "r" needed

[bommel]

Kaltxì ma smuku.

Although I watched these awesome video lessons on pronounciation I've got two remaining questions:
First, this "r"-sound: Am I right that it's kind of "rr" but shorter, i. e. a short rolled r? I can't imagine how often I've listened to words like nari and ikran and that's my impression so far...

Second, I can't figure out how to pronounce "oel" correctly (like in "oel ngati kameie"). Currently I'm at the point where it sounds like "well" without the "w" but somehow this doesn't come close to the version in the video. I'll try to record the whole phrase ("kaltxì ma tsmukan oel ngati kameie") to let you have a look/ear as soon as I get my Line 6 gear working...

irayo

EDIT: Oops, probably this should be under pronounciation! Sorry

[Tuteyä amuiä 'itan]

the r sound i dont really know i believe your right though its like a short rolling r

i think the "oel" is pronounced as "well" but i think theres a hint of an o sound there. kind of like mixing the o and w together. but i could be wrong.

[kewnya txamew'itan]

Kaltxì ma smuku.

Although I watched these awesome video lessons on pronounciation I've got two remaining questions:
First, this "r"-sound: Am I right that it's kind of "rr" but shorter, i. e. a short rolled r? I can't imagine how often I've listened to words like nari and ikran and that's my impression so far...

Second, I can't figure out how to pronounce "oel" correctly (like in "oel ngati kameie"). Currently I'm at the point where it sounds like "well" without the "w" but somehow this doesn't come close to the version in the video. I'll try to record the whole phrase ("kaltxì ma tsmukan oel ngati kameie") to let you have a look/ear as soon as I get my Line 6 gear working...

irayo

EDIT: Oops, probably this should be under pronounciation! Sorry

rs are identical to spanish. A na'vi rr is a trilled r, a single r nìna'vi is a tap, if you're American, it should be the tt in latter, the dd in ladder or t in water, it should tap the alveolar ridge and then come off very quickly, effectively an extremely short t.

oel can be pronounced juse like an English well or, if you want to annunciate more than would be normal, it is ok to pronounce it as you do but with an oh sound first.

[bommel]

irayo!
I've finally managed to record an mp3. At the end there are the words nari, ikran and trr as I currently pronounce them.
The beginning isn't as fluent as I heard it in the video but it's my 3rd day with the Na'vi language ^^

[Tuteyä amuiä 'itan]

sounds good. this is all my own opinion so u dont have 2 listen 2 me lol... for kaltxì the tx needs 2 be ejected more. the oel ngati kameie sounds good just needs 2 flow a little bit more (u might have done that just for the recording). nari is kinda hard 2 here, ikran i think should be more said like "ik-ron". and trr is sounds good the rolling rr's are a pain i can BARLEY do them

[bommel]

Thanks. Yeah, I've got to improve the overall flow but actually if I speak faster you won't understand a word. Gonna work on that
I find that "ngati" quite tricky. Somehow I'll always try to make something with "-gato" from it - but it has nothing to do with cats ^^

[kewnya txamew'itan]

Pointers:

you're saying kaltì, if you have a look at the pronunciation board there's a thread about ejectives.

Also, the r in nari is badly wrong, you seem to be doing an r like in German which is wrong in na'vi, it should be at the front of the mouth, just behind the teeth on the alveolar ridge like in Spanish.

Also, you're trilling ikran when it should be a tap and your trills on ikran and trr are both too far back (or a bit palatalised, I'm not sure).

Lastly, you missed the l on oel.

If you wait a sec, I'll record me saying it for comparison.

sounds good. this is all my own opinion so u dont have 2 listen 2 me lol... for kaltxì the tx needs 2 be ejected more. the oel ngati kameie sounds good just needs 2 flow a little bit more (u might have done that just for the recording). nari is kinda hard 2 here, ikran i think should be more said like "ik-ron". and trr is sounds good the rolling rr's are a pain i can BARLEY do them

No, his vowel is good in ikran.

[Tuteyä amuiä 'itan]

Pointers:

you're saying kaltì, if you have a look at the pronunciation board there's a thread about ejectives.

Also, the r in nari is badly wrong, you seem to be doing an r like in German which is wrong in na'vi, it should be at the front of the mouth, just behind the teeth on the alveolar ridge like in Spanish.

Also, you're trilling ikran when it should be a tap and your trills on ikran and trr are both too far back (or a bit palatalised, I'm not sure).

Lastly, you missed the l on oel.

If you wait a sec, I'll record me saying it for comparison.

sounds good. this is all my own opinion so u dont have 2 listen 2 me lol... for kaltxì the tx needs 2 be ejected more. the oel ngati kameie sounds good just needs 2 flow a little bit more (u might have done that just for the recording). nari is kinda hard 2 here, ikran i think should be more said like "ik-ron". and trr is sounds good the rolling rr's are a pain i can BARLEY do them

No, his vowel is good in ikran.

i know the vowel is good but i was trying 2 show with the r sound guess i made a bad call on that lol

[kewnya txamew'itan]

why did you change the vowel in your transcription then?

Anyway, here's the audio of me saying it

[bommel]

Okay thank you for your help. In fact I'm from Germany so that's probably why I've got trouble with my r's
I'll tried to match my pronounciation to the pronounciation video guide part 2, at least for the kaltxì part. Anyways I'm quite astonished that I went so far, normally I've got real problems learning a language (despite of programming languages cause that's what I earn my money for).

I'm watching the movie right now and there are some rare moments when I think "hey, you know that word!". Awesome

EDIT: Okay, new mp3. Just "Kaltxì ma tsmukan" and "atxkxe" as close as I could get it atm. I don't get it how to make the ì in Kaltxì sound like the i in "chin" (which was an example in the Na'vi alphabet guide). Btw my atxkxe sounds somewhat like the German word "Attacke". This Na'vi language is kidding me o.0

EDIT: Added a recording of skxawng. Probably the awng-part sounds weird (at least to me, compared to the vocabulary mp3).

[bommel]

ARGH! I don't get that freaky /r/'s o.0
I watched every video I found but I don't get it! That's so frustrating

[kewnya txamew'itan]

Okay thank you for your help. In fact I'm from Germany so that's probably why I've got trouble with my r's
I'll tried to match my pronounciation to the pronounciation video guide part 2, at least for the kaltxì part. Anyways I'm quite astonished that I went so far, normally I've got real problems learning a language (despite of programming languages cause that's what I earn my money for).

I'm watching the movie right now and there are some rare moments when I think "hey, you know that word!". Awesome

EDIT: Okay, new mp3. Just "Kaltxì ma tsmukan" and "atxkxe" as close as I could get it atm. I don't get it how to make the ì in Kaltxì sound like the i in "chin" (which was an example in the Na'vi alphabet guide). Btw my atxkxe sounds somewhat like the German word "Attacke". This Na'vi language is kidding me o.0

EDIT: Added a recording of skxawng. Probably the awng-part sounds weird (at least to me, compared to the vocabulary mp3).

1. I looked at your profile so I guessed you were getting it from German not French.

2. Your ejectives are definitely ejected now, just quite weakly, in na'vi they should be as strong and poppy as you can do.

3. The e on atxkxe is in danger of becoming ey, watch that.

4. A lot of people have trouble with ì after an ejective. Are you just having trouble with kaltxì or with ì in general? It should be like the German bist according to Wikipedia's IPA for German.

5. It sounds to me like you're doing the a in skxawng too far back, more of a [ ɑ ] which is interesting because according to wikipedia German doesn't have that sound. Anyway, you're moving the a backwards to make it closer to the w (which is articulated with the lips and the tongue with the tongues being about where it would be for u), you need to watch that.

ARGH! I don't get that freaky /r/'s o.0
I watched every video I found but I don't get it! That's so frustrating

Were you looking for videos about na'vi rs or Spanish rs? Some people find it very hard to trill rs, despite my best efforts, and their ability to learn other sounds not present in their native language, my mum has failed to pick it up, despite coping with syllable initial ng and a few extra vowels and one of my friends can't learn to trill his rs (or pronounce th) but has learnt all the na'vi vowels and the ejectives with ease.

[bommel]

Thanks!
To point 1: That came to my mind after hitting "post" ^^

To point 2/3: "It's like fieldstripping a gun: Repetition, repetition". Although I find that's much easier to learn

To point 4: I encoutered it first with kaltxì but I haven't done so much vocabs yet.

To point 5: I'm trying to pronounce the "aw" as "aouch" without the "ch", heard that in a video tutorial. Guess I just need more training at all. Maybe it's just too late (past midnight) and that's - at least for me - not the best time to learn stuff

Yay, sometimes I really love computers. Learning a programming langauge is just a joke compared to this here

Okay, I'll work tomorrow (i. e. later this day) on the r-thing to get that right if I'll find some free time. In less than a month I've got some exams to write and everytime I discover something interesting (like larning Na'vi) it's near the time of my exams!

Edit: Hmm... I should consider using less emoticons

[omängum fra'uti]

Your consonants have been pretty well covered, so I figured I'd go over your vowels.  (Though I don't recall seeing it mentioned that you shouldn't have any g sound in /ng/.  It's not ng-gati.)

First recording:
Your /a/ in kaltxì is a bit too close to /e/.  In fact, I'd call it an /e/.  It should be a bit more open and back.  The /ì/ was perhaps should be a little more front, but it was passable.

In general in this recording, you seemed to centralize the vowels.  Your ì should be more front, and your a more back.  Though your /a/ in nari was spot on.  Some of your other vowels were a bit weak, but otherwise fine.  (It took me a little bit to find the points of your /u/ even though i could hear it was definitely a /u/...  I kept charting it as /a/ which I knew was wrong.)

Second recording:
Your /a/ in kaltxì was better, but I'd still chart it as an /e/.  Your /ì/ was nearly spot on, but then you closed too much on it turning it into an ì-i diphthong.  Your /a/ in ma wasn't as good as the first recording, it was a bit lazy and centralized.  The /u/ and /a/ in tsmukan were too weak to chart.

I'm going to disagree with kemeoauniaea on your /e/ in atxkxe.  It was a solid single sound, no hint of diphthong there.  However it was closer to /ì/ than /e/.  It should be a lax consonant...  A little more central and perhaps a touch more open.

Third recording:
100% agree with kemeoauniaea, your [ a ] sounds like [ ɑ ]

Overall though it was fairly good with the vowels.  For the most part, a majority of them were on the edge of what I would consider proper, if not better.  Even some I commented on were just outside what I'd call good, and that could just be natural variations in your voice vs what I am using as a baseline.

Now.... kemeoauniaea....  Your turn.

Ok, actually you're pretty good on your vowels.  But your ì on kaltxì is borderline i.  I'd open up just a touch on it.  There was a hint of a diphthong starting there before you stopped vocalizing, as well.  Your /a/ in tsmukan was starting to wander into ä territory.  (It was hearing that which prompted me to load yours up to analyze as well.)  Pretty much the rest of your vowels were 100% spot on, right smack dab in the middle of where my reference for them falls.

[kewnya txamew'itan]

Irayo for the criticism ma omängum, I think the reason I have so much trouble with the ì in kaltxì is that I have a tendancy to actually do a retroflex ejective for tx (I've no idea why) and unfortunatley I think I'm stuck in a rut about that, and it's hard to get my tongue down in time so I tend to get the iì diphtong you describe.

And sometimes I hate speaking English as a first language, listening back to it, I'd say it was definitely an "ä", thanks for pointing it out to me.

On the second recording with atxkxe, I was struggling for the right words, and meant that it sounded almost like the midpoint of ey, you described it a lot better.

[bommel]

Okay, all in all this means I'm no hopeless case?

Today I walked trying to pronounce pero, nari, sangre, ikran (beduino's video tutorial) and repeating "ladder" through the city. All those strange looks you earn! Sometimes I thought I'd come close to what it should sound like (to me something like "d" with a small note of "r"). Anyway, I'll make a new record of various words when I'm back at home. I'll also include some german words (e. g. "bist") because the i-Part (ì) sounds to me far away from what I've heard so far. My pronounciation ranges somewhere between "ä" and "e". But perhaps I just ruined my ears by listening to those banging metalheads

By the way: I'm no genius at this IPA stuff, but I've got the impression that some of the Na'vi sounds like a, e, i, ä sound akin to the normal German pronounciation (e. g. "Glas" or "Wagen" where it's like "ahhh"). I'll include those sounds, too. Actually I use this as a base for my pronounciation, so if I'm wrong this could ruin my day ^^

This is really a great forum, thank you for your help!

PS: Probably I'll also have to do some therotical research because I've got no clue what "retroflex ejective" is.

[kewnya txamew'itan]

By no means a hopeless case.

German words for na'vi vowels are:

a - dach
ä - not in German, but is in the English cat
e - hätte
i - a shorter version of the ie in viel or in the borrowed word vital
ì - bist
o - shorter version of the oo in boot or like the o in the borrowed word moral
u - in most syllables like a shorter hut or the borrowed kulant, in closed syllables (ones with a consonant at the end of them) you can pronounce it like putz instead.

A retroflex ejective means I do the ejective with my tongue bent back behind the alveolar ridge (the ridge in your mouth behind your teeth) instead of touching the front of that ridge as it should be for tx.

[bommel]

Wow, irayo!
For the ä I thought it could sound like "Käse" (cheese). Perhaps I'll include this in my upcoming record

So ì is somewhere between i and e (the German ones)? Actually I think this will cause me more headaches than the /r/ & /rr/'s!

[Carborundum]

According to wikipedia, ä is the sound in german drehen. Check out the example recording if you have not done so already: Near-open front unrounded vowel

[bommel]

irayo, I'll have a look at that. Btw "drehen" is quite far away from the sound of "Käse" so probably I was completly wrong. Argh, those metalheads!