Author Topic: Glottal Stops & Ejectives  (Read 5653 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Risp

  • Ketuwong
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: 0
Glottal Stops & Ejectives
« on: November 15, 2011, 05:48:25 pm »
Probably not allowed or put in the wrong place, but I am in need of some dreadfully needed help! I know Na'vi has glottal stops and ejectives, but I cannot seem to pronounce them. Or if I am, I'm not sure if I notice which is what.  :'(

I was told a glottal stop is the "uh" in "uh-oh", and then I was told it was the "-" in "uh-oh", but I don't hear anything. And then I was told it doesn't make any sound you can hear, its just a form of marker. And ejectives....I can't really find anything that I can use.

If someone could help me with pronouncing glottal stops or the ejectives, I would really appreciate it! Lastly, I have watched nearly all videos on youtube about glottal stops, and I have also searched the web for what seems like forever (its been a week). :-[

Well...thanks for reading!  ;D

Risp~

Offline Kamean

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 10804
  • Karma: 64
  • Oe lu tute a tsun stivawm Eywayä mokrit
Re: Glottal Stops & Ejectives
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2011, 05:57:34 pm »
Listen this Karyu Pawl speech (with English translation), it helps you pronounce ejectives and glottal stops. :)
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Offline Risp

  • Ketuwong
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: 0
Re: Glottal Stops & Ejectives
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2011, 06:45:34 pm »
Is audio suppose to play on the site when I go in, or am I to click something? :-[

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6230
  • Karma: 224
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Glottal Stops & Ejectives
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2011, 04:01:13 am »
It’s now here.

You have to click on the »Oe new ’upxaret Karyu Pawl…« button and the audio will start. And you can read along—Na’vi and English ;) Whenever there’s a tx, kx, or px in the transcription, that is where the ejective is.

Whenever there is a (apostrophe) in the transcription that’s where the glottal stop is. Tì’efumì oeyä, you can hear it best in the words lì’fya, Na’vi and paye’un … it’s not liiiifya, Naaavi or payewun or something. You make a short break within the word and ‘start’ again to pronounce.

The tricky part is to recognise it at the beginning or the end. Here the way sounds influence each other beyond single word bounderies can help. So it’s fpole’ ayngal … and not *fpoleayngal (again, you stop the air flow coming through your throat and start ayngal anew)

That’s the best way I can describe it. There are a few more recordings from Pawl himself and a lot of material from our dedicated members. For me it was best to listen to them over and over again and try to come as close to that in my pronunciation as possible.

Hope that helps :)

Offline Blue Elf

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5502
  • cz Czech Republic
  • Karma: 112
    • My attempt for blog
Re: Glottal Stops & Ejectives
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2011, 04:43:17 am »
I think good explanation is in Na'vi in a nutshell (see download page at LN).
Glottal stop is really short pause in speech, during which no air goes through throat. This say "Go away" in two ways:
- standard way - during pause between word let air to breath out
- second way - do bigger pause between words, where you hold breath. Then you should feel something strange in throat while pronouncing starting "a" in "away". Or try to pronounce "away" with extra stress on starting "a", starting with breath hold. That is glottal stop.

Ejectives are pronounced as their non-ejective "brothers" :) but you hold air in mouth and let it go out suddenly, what creates "pop" sound. It is hard to describe, but you can find more threads about this problem on the forum.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: Glottal Stops & Ejectives
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2011, 11:10:56 am »
the glottal stop apostrophe is a sharp abrupt break in speech.

it can occur in a few types of places:

at the beginning of the word or sentence:

'eylan oeyä lu nga
you are my friend

in the middle of the word:

am'a
doubt

between two words:

am'a 'ì'awn
doubt remains

at the end of a word or sentence:

rä'ä tswa'
do not forget

every time you see a ', just cut yourself off for like a quarter or half second and keep going.

Does that make sense? The glottal stop is most prominent between words or in the middle of a word, mostly sandwiched between vowels.

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://bit.ly/kelkuikranä
Learn Na'vi at Mo'ara Discord: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline Risp

  • Ketuwong
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: 0
Re: Glottal Stops & Ejectives
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2011, 04:56:50 pm »
@Plumps:
Thanks for the link! I will look at it now!  :P

So it is just a pause? No sound? Seems a bit tricky for me to recognize/hear the sound, but I'll keep practicing! The Wikipedia's recording of a glottal stop makes it sound like "uh". I wonder why...

@Blue Elf:

Download link? I'm still new to the forum, but I think I know where it is!  :-[

So ejectives sound much like their not globalized phone/sound? 

@Tirea Aean:

A pause before the first word and start of a sentence? Wouldn't that just sound like you were pronouncing it normally?  I think I can pronounce them in the middle of a word, but start and end...I can't seem to repeat, at least that I recognize. I'll have a look at the links now.

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4767
  • us United States
  • Karma: 44
  • Palulukan alu Kenya 06/23/1996 - 01/15/2017
    • The Lionlamb website
Re: Glottal Stops & Ejectives
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2011, 09:50:45 pm »
A glottal stop is indeed the little pause in the middle of 'uh-oh'. When you say this, you can feel the glottis in your throat move to briefly block the airway.

Glottal stops that occur at the beginning of a sentence, or at the very end aren't really 'pronounced' at all. I will start or end a standalone word more abruptly that as a glottal stop at the beginning and the end. But the glottal stop really isn't there because there is no sound before (or after) the glottal stop to create a glottal stop 'pause'. However, a glottal stop at the beginning or end of a word, when there is a word before, or after the word in question, gets a slight pause. In a sense, such a glottal stop helps to separate two words. Otherwise, Na'vi is intended to be pronounced rather 'legato', with one word very nearly flowing into the next word.

Don't worry if you don't get this right the first time. There are plenty of other things to learn!
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 10:03:38 pm by `Eylan Ayfalulukanä »

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Offline Risp

  • Ketuwong
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: 0
Re: Glottal Stops & Ejectives
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2011, 12:16:34 am »
How can you tell if you are giving the needed word the right amount of pause? I think I am understanding it though. :)

So then, without a glottal stop in "Na'vi" it would be pronounced "Nayvee" rather than "Nah-vee"? Unless I have the pronunciation wrong...?  :-[

Offline Blue Elf

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5502
  • cz Czech Republic
  • Karma: 112
    • My attempt for blog
Re: Glottal Stops & Ejectives
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2011, 01:29:26 am »
@Blue Elf:

Download link? I'm still new to the forum, but I think I know where it is!  :-[
www.learnnavi.org/downloads. Here you find all important documents.
Quote
So ejectives sound much like their not globalized phone/sound? 
Something like not ejective version or the letters, but with extra stress.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1318
  • Karma: 33
  • wgmk is love wgmk is life
Re: Glottal Stops & Ejectives
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2011, 07:20:17 pm »
For the glottal stop, try saying "uh-oh" without a glottal stop. It will sound like "woh".

And I think Wikipedia's recording goes like:

'a. A'a.

This place will help you a lot:
http://forum.learnnavi.org/pronunciation-phonetics/navi-lexical-sentences-for-pseudovowels-and-diphthongs/
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Offline Risp

  • Ketuwong
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: 0
Re: Glottal Stops & Ejectives
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2011, 11:19:10 pm »
Thank you very much Blue Elf! I shall look at it now! :D

@Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng:

Oh? I think I  understand what glottal stops are now, though it is still a bit hard for me to pronounce/hear at the end of a word. xD

Thanks for the link! I'll check `em all out now.  :)

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: Glottal Stops & Ejectives
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2011, 05:18:02 pm »
A glottal stop is indeed the little pause in the middle of 'uh-oh'. When you say this, you can feel the glottis in your throat move to briefly block the airway.

Right. Exactly.

Quote
Glottal stops that occur at the beginning of a sentence, or at the very end aren't really 'pronounced' at all.

Not true. They are still pronounced. but this also doesnt mean supremely emphasize an abrupt start. For sentences that begin with a vowel, the sentence starts in a more smooth, "glidy" way and flows through to the end, and if it ends in a vowel, it ends smoothly. Compare this to a sentence that starts and ends with a glottal stop: The beginning is abrupt, and the end is a sharp cutoff as if someone cuts you off rudely in a conversation, when you were just about to make a statement.

Quote
I will start or end a standalone word more abruptly that as a glottal stop at the beginning and the end.

sure. that will work.

Quote
But the glottal stop really isn't there because there is no sound before (or after) the glottal stop to create a glottal stop 'pause'.

Again I disagree. it IS there. albeit not blatantly noticable.

Quote
However, a glottal stop at the beginning or end of a word, when there is a word before, or after the word in question, gets a slight pause. In a sense, such a glottal stop helps to separate two words.

Sure. it is MUCH more noticable when a word beginning with a glottal stop comes right after a word that ends in a vowel, e.g. ma 'eylan and when a word with a glottal stop at the end comes before a word that starts with a vowel, e.g. tswa' oe

Quote
Otherwise, Na'vi is intended to be pronounced rather 'legato', with one word very nearly flowing into the next word.

Don't worry if you don't get this right the first time. There are plenty of other things to learn!

right on.

How can you tell if you are giving the needed word the right amount of pause? I think I am understanding it though. :)

So then, without a glottal stop in "Na'vi" it would be pronounced "Nayvee" rather than "Nah-vee"? Unless I have the pronunciation wrong...?  :-[

WITHOUT a glottal stop, *"Navi" would be something like "NAHvee", very smooth.

WITH a glottal stop, Na'vi is something like NA{0.25second pause}.vee


For the glottal stop, try saying "uh-oh" without a glottal stop. It will sound like "woh".

And I think Wikipedia's recording goes like:

'a. A'a.

This place will help you a lot:
http://forum.learnnavi.org/pronunciation-phonetics/navi-lexical-sentences-for-pseudovowels-and-diphthongs/



Thank you very much Blue Elf! I shall look at it now! :D

@Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng:

Oh? I think I  understand what glottal stops are now, though it is still a bit hard for me to pronounce/hear at the end of a word. xD

Thanks for the link! I'll check `em all out now.  :)

You'll get it. Basically, it's really not noticeable at the beginning of a word or at the end except that it's simply just more abrupt. but many people NORMALLY speak with a glottal stop at the beginning and end of some words. It's just that in English, we don't bother counting the glottal stop as a consonat in the alphabet and we don't write it down. otherwise, some poeple would be writing stuff like

'Everyone can 'attempt to do something 'innovative. (when trying to speak overly clearly) but others, such as myself would slur these together smoothly in a very connective casual way:

everyonecanattemptodosomethinginnovative.

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://bit.ly/kelkuikranä
Learn Na'vi at Mo'ara Discord: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline 'Oma Tirea

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3874
  • Karma: 50
  • Na'vi... sleru... rusti...
Re: Glottal Stops & Ejectives
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2011, 09:44:07 pm »
Also, a little rawke: the glottal stop can contrast in words: nga vs. nga' for instance.

Also, ejectives are basically a sharper, p, t, or k, "with a 'pop'".  They're kinda like saying a ' and a p, t or k at the same time, which is possibly why you may be having trouble with them.

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: Glottal Stops & Ejectives
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2011, 08:22:18 am »
right! glottal stops are consonants and come at the beginning and end of words for a reason. they are not to be thrown aside lest the word be ambiguous! ;D

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://bit.ly/kelkuikranä
Learn Na'vi at Mo'ara Discord: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines | XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, LightStorm Entertainment or The Walt Disney Company.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi