Kx, px, tx and '

Started by MIPP, May 21, 2010, 11:44:42 AM

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MIPP

I just don't know the right way to say kx, px, tx and '.
Can anyone tell me where i can find an audio files ONLY for them?
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Loveless, Act IV.

kewnya txamew'itan

The wikipedia pages have sound samples.

px
tx
kx
'
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MIPP

Quote from: kemeoauniaea on May 21, 2010, 11:54:28 AM
The wikipedia pages have sound samples.

px
tx
kx
'

I guess it's too sample and hard to understand :(
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Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

kewnya txamew'itan

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Each page has an audio clip with each of the consonants with it going Ca aC a so you can hear each consonant as a syllable onset and coda.
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MIPP

Quote from: kemeoauniaea on May 21, 2010, 12:31:37 PM
I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Each page has an audio clip with each of the consonants with it going Ca aC a so you can hear each consonant as a syllable onset and coda.

I know, but i can't learn just listening to that. I need to listen words, foe example: Skxawng.
That's the audio i need, not only syllabes.
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

eanayo

Have you had a look at the Audio section yet?
For example, here is the peer-reviewed spoken word list, and here are Ftiafpi's pronunciation guides.
Is that the kind of stuff you're looking for?

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MIPP

#6
Quote from: Aysyal on May 21, 2010, 03:18:39 PM
Have you had a look at the Audio section yet?
For example, here is the peer-reviewed spoken word list, and here are Ftiafpi's pronunciation guides.
Is that the kind of stuff you're looking for?

Yeah, that ;)
Irayo ma tsmukan and sorry for not searching  :-[
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

kewnya txamew'itan

Quote from: MIPP on May 21, 2010, 11:44:42 AM
Can anyone tell me where i can find an audio files ONLY for them?

Sorry, I misunderstood this sentence and though you wanted audio of the consonants on their own. My bad. Eywa ngahu.
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mmarkster

To pronounce the kx, px, and tx, you have to pronounce them without using your breath. An easy way to do this is to hold your breath while trying to pronounce the sound. Keeping the ' (glottal stop) in mind while  pronouncing the syllable will help.

Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì

I just think of the kx, px, and tx as "hard" k, p, and t sounds. Like the regular English pronunciation, but with extra emphasis. But yeah, what people say about "holding your breath" is true. These ejectives are pronounced without breathflow through the k, p, or t sound. Hope that helps!

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`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I have, up to now, been pronouncing the ejectives as hard versions of their parent consonants (withot trying to use breath support). In many cases, they have a vowel immediately following, so I try and make the vowel sound upon release. For instance, this would make the word Txivìng come across as TEE-ving. This works, but in most cases does not give that 'pop' that many people are able to make with the ejectives. The alternative way of dealing with ejectives is to have an implied glottal stop immediately after the ejective sound. I have heard a lot of examples of this, but it seems to really disrupt the word it is in.  For this case, Txivìng would be T`ev-ing.

Is one of these ways more correct than the other? or, are both correct 9or neither)?

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kewnya txamew'itan

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on August 17, 2010, 03:03:40 PM
I have, up to now, been pronouncing the ejectives as hard versions of their parent consonants (withot trying to use breath support). In many cases, they have a vowel immediately following, so I try and make the vowel sound upon release. For instance, this would make the word Txivìng come across as TEE-ving. This works, but in most cases does not give that 'pop' that many people are able to make with the ejectives. The alternative way of dealing with ejectives is to have an implied glottal stop immediately after the ejective sound. I have heard a lot of examples of this, but it seems to really disrupt the word it is in.  For this case, Txivìng would be T`ev-ing.

Is one of these ways more correct than the other? or, are both correct 9or neither)?

The first is incorrect and is in fact a combination of aspiration and a change in stress neither of which occur in na'vi.

Ejectives are not necessarily any "harder" sounding than the corresponding stop (in na'vi they are, but that's an almost arbitrary decision), instead they are a different airstream just like nasal consonants are a different airstream. In many ways it would be less confusing (albeit harder to learn) if we abandoned any connection to p, t, and k as has been done with m, n and ng; anyway, I digress; they are a different airstream corresponding to an airflow from the mouth with a closed glottis as opposed to the pulmonic airstream (that that is the most common in na'vi and English found in all their vowels (unless your accent of English has nasalisation) and the vast majority of consonants) where the air comes straight from the lungs.
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hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
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`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on August 17, 2010, 05:50:19 PM
Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on August 17, 2010, 03:03:40 PM
I have, up to now, been pronouncing the ejectives as hard versions of their parent consonants (withot trying to use breath support). In many cases, they have a vowel immediately following, so I try and make the vowel sound upon release. For instance, this would make the word Txivìng come across as TEE-ving. This works, but in most cases does not give that 'pop' that many people are able to make with the ejectives. The alternative way of dealing with ejectives is to have an implied glottal stop immediately after the ejective sound. I have heard a lot of examples of this, but it seems to really disrupt the word it is in.  For this case, Txivìng would be T`ev-ing.

Is one of these ways more correct than the other? or, are both correct 9or neither)?

The first is incorrect and is in fact a combination of aspiration and a change in stress neither of which occur in na'vi.

Ejectives are not necessarily any "harder" sounding than the corresponding stop (in na'vi they are, but that's an almost arbitrary decision), instead they are a different airstream just like nasal consonants are a different airstream. In many ways it would be less confusing (albeit harder to learn) if we abandoned any connection to p, t, and k as has been done with m, n and ng; anyway, I digress; they are a different airstream corresponding to an airflow from the mouth with a closed glottis as opposed to the pulmonic airstream (that that is the most common in na'vi and English found in all their vowels (unless your accent of English has nasalisation) and the vast majority of consonants) where the air comes straight from the lungs.

If the first example I quoted is incorrect, is the second correct?

I went and listened on the 'peer reviewed word list' to a variety of Na`vi words with ejectives being spoken. Most, including the vetted words, were much more like example 1 than example 2.

Perhaps tiving was a poor example. I used TEE as the first syllable as the i sound is like a long E sound, thus TEE.

In any case, this thread made me go back and listen to stuff I haven't listened to since the first few days I have been learning Na`vi!

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

kewnya txamew'itan

Ma 'eylan, the first example is incorrect and the second is correct(ish), it's more that the glottal stop surrounds or is co-articulated with the normal stop rather than that the normal stop is followed by a glottal stop.

I had a listen to some ejectives in the peer reviewed words list and many of them do indeed seem to be aspirated not ejected to me. I've requested to become a speaker/reviewer.
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omängum fra'uti

What words are you thinking sound aspirated rather than ejected?

One thing I've noticed is some people seem to go off the pause between the consonant and the following vowel to mean it is ejected, but a fluent speaker would not have that pause.  In some words where I've gotten good at pronouncing the ejectives without a pause (Usually tx but sometimes kx) and I have had people say then it wasn't ejected.  But it is, the difference is in the quality of the sound of the consonant.  An ejected consonant sounds much harsher than a regular aspirated plosive.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

To muddy the waters even more, I listened to (I think) K. Pawl giving a short talk about speaking Na`vi to some group (It was on Tiera Radio). It is the presentation where he talked about Na`vi pickup lines. (He used the 'be my ikran and I will ride you' line, which I seem to vaguely recall that Omängum Frauti came up with.) In that example, the ejectives were more as I pronounce example 1.

I have an extremely busy weekend coming up, but I am going to try and record some examples that can be listened to and critiqued.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

omängum fra'uti

I did not come up with that line, it was from his interview with lemondrop.com.

But...  There's no ejectives in Oeyä ikran slivu nga, tsakrr oeng 'awsiteng mivakto
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Muzer

Thinking of that audio, I also noticed he was pronouncing his a closer to what I would say is ä, which is making me doubt my own a yet again...
[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

omängum fra'uti

Frommer is not infallible in his pronunciation, but if you have a link to the actual sound file, I can tell you how accurate his vowels are.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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kewnya txamew'itan

Quote from: omängum fra'uti on August 20, 2010, 02:03:06 PM
What words are you thinking sound aspirated rather than ejected?

One thing I've noticed is some people seem to go off the pause between the consonant and the following vowel to mean it is ejected, but a fluent speaker would not have that pause.  In some words where I've gotten good at pronouncing the ejectives without a pause (Usually tx but sometimes kx) and I have had people say then it wasn't ejected.  But it is, the difference is in the quality of the sound of the consonant.  An ejected consonant sounds much harsher than a regular aspirated plosive.

I wasn't going by the pause, there were a few where there was a definite lack of any pop or ejective sound as opposed to the burst in an aspirated one.

I was perhaps a little over-zealous in my initial look however I did spot the following:

fìtxan by UM
nìtxan by UM

Other than that there were a few where they weren't very strongly ejected.
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