lenition???

[jotitax]

hi, can somebody help me with a little problem :/

if you want to change tokx into plural you have to add ay+ ( aysokx or just sokx ) \
                                                                                                                 } ----> how i know that sokx mean "bodies" or " 2 bodies"
but if you want to talk about 2 bodies you add me+           ( mesokx or just sokx ) /





PD: sorry, I don't speak english very well

[omängum fra'uti]

For 2 bodies, it's always mesokx.  The ONLY leniting prefix you can drop is ay+.

[jotitax]

irayo ma omängum fra'uti

[roger]

Yes, in the case of Na'vi, "plural" means four or more, not two or more as it does re English.

[Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn]

For our purposes though it will have to be 3 or more until we get the trial form.

[omängum fra'uti]

I don't see of it so much as "more than X" but rather just "An unspecified amount" - however that could be my English mind filling that in.

[suomichris]

I don't see of it so much as "more than X" but rather just "An unspecified amount" - however that could be my English mind filling that in.

Well, yes, an unspecified amount... Hmm... I wonder about this.  I mean, if you're looking for nantang, and you don't know how many you will see, you would presumably use the plural, even though you might only see one or two or three...  But, I imagine any time the amount is clear, you'll only get plural if you have four or more (or, currently, three, since we don't have those trial forms yet...).

[Erimeyz]

If dual is for things that come in pairs, don't you think trial will be for things that come in threes, and not just any old three of anything?

... what comes in threes, anyway?  I suppose on Pandora it could be damn near anything, like threes of pairs of legs on hexapedes.

  - Eri

[suomichris]

If dual is for things that come in pairs, don't you think trial will be for things that come in threes, and not just any old three of anything?

... what comes in threes, anyway?  I suppose on Pandora it could be damn near anything, like threes of pairs of legs on hexapedes.

Nah, dual isn't just for things that come in pairs, it's for two of ANYTHING; likewise with trial...

[Erimeyz]

Hm.  Wikipedia says: "besides singular and plural, [nouns] have special dual forms for two of an item (eyes, hands, lovers, etc.)"  That wording strongly suggests to me that its for pairs of things, not just two things.

I have no idea what WP relies on for that, or if that's even what they meant to imply.

Sources? Anyone? Bueller?

  - Eri

[Na'rìghawnu]

According to the usage in ancient Greek e. g. (where they have a dual too), it's the fact, that the dual is used normally for things that come in pairs more or less naturally (legs, arms, partners in a marriage etc.). In case the "two-ness" of something is just randomly, the use of dual and plural doesn't follow a strict rule. It's often dual, but sometimes also plural.

[kewnya txamew'itan]

We have at least one canonical clip of Neytiri saying menga IIRC so dual forms are not restricted to things that naturally come in twos, it's just easiest for languages lacking duals to think of them that way.

[omängum fra'uti]

You can also clearly hear "mefo yìm", from Eytukan I believe.  (Might have been Tsu'tey though, memory is a little foggy.)

[wm.annis]

You can also clearly hear "mefo yìm", from Eytukan I believe.  (Might have been Tsu'tey though, memory is a little foggy.)

mefo-t yìm. 

Also, in Homer's Greek the dual is more productive, and can easily refer to two people, say.

[omängum fra'uti]

Yeah that

I knew that two, yet typed it without the accusitive twice. :/

[donjoe]

Are there any clear rules for when to apply lenition?

[SanguineEpitaph]

If a word begins with kx, tx, px, ts, p, or k, that word lenits when fitted with a leniting prefix.

Me-, pxe-, and ay- are leniting prefixes. When people write them down, if they divide a word up by prefix, suffix, etc. then they may write "me+___".  The + indicates lenition.

Anyway, I'll write some examples:

Tokx - Body

Mesokx, pxesokx, aysokx (or just sokx)

Kifkey - World

Mehifkey, pxehifkey, ayhifkey

Po - S/he

Mefo, pxefo, ayfo

And so on. I think the only leniting prefixes are the plurals, but I may be mistaken about that.

Hope this helps!

[Erimeyz]

Good answer!  There's a bit more, though.

In your list, you left out "t".

You also left out the glottal stop '.  A lenited glottal stop simply is dropped.  For example: 'upxare "message", meupxare "two messages".

Some adpositions also trigger lenition.  We know that mì "in" does, and it may be that ftu "from" does also.  We don't know whether any others do.  Leniting adpositions cause lenition when used in front of the noun, as in mì te'lan "in the heart".  Adpositions can also be appended to the ends of nouns, as in txe'lanmì "in the heart", in which case they do not cause lenition.

If a noun undergoes lenition with the plural marker ay+, the ay can then optionally be dropped, leaving just the lenited noun.  E.g. ay+txe'lan -> ayte'lan -> te'lan "hearts".  Either ayte'lan or te'lan can be used.  Ay can be dropped because the lenited form is unambiguously distinct from the unlenited form, meaning you can tell that txe'lan is singular and te'lan is plural.

You can't drop the ay from nouns that don't undergo lenition, i.e. those that don't start with kx, tx, px, k, t, p, ts, or '.

The number prefixes me+ (dual) and pxe+ (trial) cause lenition, but they can't be dropped afterwards like ay+ can.  Which makes sense if you think about it: if all three could be dropped, they would all look the same after being dropped, and you couldn't tell whether the lenited noun was dual, trial, or plural.

Hope this helps!

  - Eri

[SanguineEpitaph]

Ah, yes, I thought I was missing some. Thanks, ma Erimeyz.

[donjoe]

If a noun undergoes lenition with the plural marker ay+, the ay can then optionally be dropped, leaving just the lenited noun.  E.g. ay+txe'lan -> ayte'lan -> te'lan "hearts".  Either ayte'lan or te'lan can be used.  Ay can be dropped because the lenited form is unambiguously distinct from the unlenited form, meaning you can tell that txe'lan is singular and te'lan is plural.

Damn. This is the kind of gratuitously complicated rule that can quickly turn a language irritating for me.

Anyway, irayo ma Erimeyz sì ma SanguineEpitaph!