Author Topic: Pronouncing Irayo  (Read 8433 times)

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Offline Seze

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Pronouncing Irayo
« on: December 22, 2009, 05:37:44 pm »
Kaltì,

The r flap is still messing with my mind.  Is Irayo pronounced  "(i) + die + (o) or (i) + rie + (o) or somewhere in between? Note: IPA in ()

Edit: SMF doesn't like it when I put things in "[""]"
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 05:42:15 pm by Seze »


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Offline Skxawng

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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2009, 05:44:25 pm »
Kaltì,

The r flap is still messing with my mind.  Is Irayo pronounced  "(i) + die + (o) or (i) + rie + (o) or somewhere in between? Note: IPA in ()

Edit: SMF doesn't like it when I put things in "[""]"

I'd say somewhere inbetween. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure correctly pronouncing the R is that flap you can hear during the  "nari" head-slap scene.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 05:47:05 pm by Z »


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Offline Seze

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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2009, 05:45:45 pm »
Kaltì,

The r flap is still messing with my mind.  Is Irayo pronounced  "(i) + die + (o) or (i) + rie + (o) or somewhere in between? Note: IPA in ()

Edit: SMF doesn't like it when I put things in "[""]"

I'd say somewhere inbetween. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure correctly pronouncing the R is that flap you can hear during the  "narr" head-slap scene.

Do you mean "nari"?


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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2009, 05:46:11 pm »
Here's a nice YouTube video explaining the tap and the trilled /r/ in Spanish for English speakers:

The "flap r" is Na'vi r
The "trill r" is Na'vi rr
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline wisnij

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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2009, 05:47:10 pm »
"die" is probably as good a place to start as any, since /d/ is sometimes realized as [ɾ] in English.  It's definitely not the approximant [ɹ] that "r" usually means (e.g. in "rye").  The Wikipedia page has a sound sample that may help.
Wé cildra biddaþ þé, éalá láréow, þæt þú taéce ús sprecan rihte, forþám ungelaérede wé sindon, and gewæmmodlíce we sprecaþ.

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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2009, 05:47:42 pm »
Do you mean "nari"?

ack yes durr  ::)


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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2009, 06:11:53 pm »
It's something between... When I say "d" my tongue presses against the top of my mouth, when I say "r" my tongue is pulled back and never touches.  With the Na'vi "r" sound my tongue just barely touches the top of my mouth like I am about to say a "d" but as soon as it touches and starts to restrict the air flow, I pull it back into the "r" position producing the "flap".  Of course that is all voiced like an "r", but the actual "r" sound is not sustained, instead I move right on to the next sound there.

Maybe try practice with "nari" like the scene where Jake was trying to learn.  It's a less complex sound after the "r", so you can just focus on the part you need to learn.  I promise I won't smack your head until you get it right.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Seze

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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2009, 06:14:42 pm »
I found this article online that talks about teaching the Spanish r sound to Americans.  I found it helpful, though it is from an academic journal so it may be a bit dry to some people...


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Offline Seze

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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2009, 06:55:38 pm »
Its making a lot more sense to me now.  The next word I am working on pronouncing correctly is Toruk.  When I listen to Neytiri say it, it comes off as Torduk (the d and English r seem to merge) and even sometimes with a slight trill in it. 


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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2009, 07:06:54 pm »
I think the main difference between the R in "Irayo" and "Torduk" is that the "o" and "u" sound are about as far from the mouth shape needed for "r" as you can get in language.  So more of the vocalized sound comes out due to more time spent forming the appropriate shape.  However that is just my theory.  When I try to say it, it almost comes out like "Tore-duke" mushed together.
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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2009, 07:26:36 pm »
When ive been saying it out loud, ive been putting emphasis on the ra together, making it iRAyo.  Is this the wrong way to be doing it?

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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2009, 07:43:12 pm »
When ive been saying it out loud, ive been putting emphasis on the ra together, making it iRAyo.  Is this the wrong way to be doing it?
Thats how ive been saying it


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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2009, 08:01:11 pm »
When ive been saying it out loud, ive been putting emphasis on the ra together, making it iRAyo.  Is this the wrong way to be doing it?

From what's given in the Activist Survival Giude word list, it looks to me like the assumed accent is on the final syllable unless otherwise specified.  I'd guess iraYO, since the accent for it isn't marked in that word list.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2009, 08:02:10 pm »
I don't thing the a and y should be split up since ay is a diphthong.  Not a linguist so I could easily be wrong on that.  I also noticed that our vocabulary page doesn't underline the stressed part of the word like the Avatar Field Guide does, but irayo didn't have anything underlining in it at all.


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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2009, 08:15:11 pm »
I don't thing the a and y should be split up since ay is a diphthong.

Since the -ay- is followed by a vowel and not a consonant, the consonantal value of y wins: i-ra-yo.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Seze

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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2009, 08:34:21 pm »
I don't thing the a and y should be split up since ay is a diphthong.

Since the -ay- is followed by a vowel and not a consonant, the consonantal value of y wins: i-ra-yo.

I am trying to understand why y becomes a consonant.  Where is this rule (diphthong + vowel = broken diphthong + vowel) talked about?  I've tried looking for it on the phonetic pages but can't really find anything. 


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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2009, 08:42:50 pm »
I am trying to understand why y becomes a consonant.  Where is this rule (diphthong + vowel = broken diphthong + vowel) talked about?  I've tried looking for it on the phonetic pages but can't really find anything. 

I'm relying on the behavior of every human language I've ever studied.  If Frommer expected this to be different, I'm hoping he would have made a point to mention it in his LL post.  It would be odd enough to warrant mention.  :)
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2009, 08:52:41 pm »
I'm not a linguist, so I'll take your word on it. The only other language I've ever studied was Spanish (at a pretty basic level no less).


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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2009, 06:55:41 pm »
In practice, would it make a difference if it was pronounced either i-ra-yo or i-ray-o? The sound of both pronunciations seems similar to me.
Ngal Na'viti plltxe tsun srak?
Ngari si nìwoti neu, slä sngä’ike tì’ekoti ne tuteri alahe tìrey fu aytsat amuiä.

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Re: Pronouncing Irayo
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2009, 07:01:19 pm »
If you pronounce "-ray-" like the english word then no, it's not the good way. The "a" is much lower in the mouth when you say it in Na'vi.

 

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