Pronouncing Irayo

Started by Seze, December 22, 2009, 05:37:44 PM

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Seze

Kaltì,

The r flap is still messing with my mind.  Is Irayo pronounced  "(i) + die + (o) or (i) + rie + (o) or somewhere in between? Note: IPA in ()

Edit: SMF doesn't like it when I put things in "[""]"


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Skxawng

#1
Quote from: Seze on December 22, 2009, 05:37:44 PM
Kaltì,

The r flap is still messing with my mind.  Is Irayo pronounced  "(i) + die + (o) or (i) + rie + (o) or somewhere in between? Note: IPA in ()

Edit: SMF doesn't like it when I put things in "[""]"

I'd say somewhere inbetween. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure correctly pronouncing the R is that flap you can hear during the  "nari" head-slap scene.


"prrkxentrrkrr is a skill best saved for only the most cunning linguist"

Seze

Quote from: Z on December 22, 2009, 05:44:25 PM
Quote from: Seze on December 22, 2009, 05:37:44 PM
Kaltì,

The r flap is still messing with my mind.  Is Irayo pronounced  "(i) + die + (o) or (i) + rie + (o) or somewhere in between? Note: IPA in ()

Edit: SMF doesn't like it when I put things in "[""]"

I'd say somewhere inbetween. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure correctly pronouncing the R is that flap you can hear during the  "narr" head-slap scene.

Do you mean "nari"?


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wm.annis

Here's a nice YouTube video explaining the tap and the trilled /r/ in Spanish for English speakers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXAy8nMkHng

The "flap r" is Na'vi r
The "trill r" is Na'vi rr

wisnij

"die" is probably as good a place to start as any, since /d/ is sometimes realized as [ɾ] in English.  It's definitely not the approximant [ɹ] that "r" usually means (e.g. in "rye").  The Wikipedia page has a sound sample that may help.
Wé cildra biddaþ þé, éalá láréow, þæt þú taéce ús sprecan rihte, forþám ungelaérede wé sindon, and gewæmmodlíce we sprecaþ.

Skxawng



"prrkxentrrkrr is a skill best saved for only the most cunning linguist"

omängum fra'uti

It's something between... When I say "d" my tongue presses against the top of my mouth, when I say "r" my tongue is pulled back and never touches.  With the Na'vi "r" sound my tongue just barely touches the top of my mouth like I am about to say a "d" but as soon as it touches and starts to restrict the air flow, I pull it back into the "r" position producing the "flap".  Of course that is all voiced like an "r", but the actual "r" sound is not sustained, instead I move right on to the next sound there.

Maybe try practice with "nari" like the scene where Jake was trying to learn.  It's a less complex sound after the "r", so you can just focus on the part you need to learn.  I promise I won't smack your head until you get it right.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Seze

I found this article online that talks about teaching the Spanish r sound to Americans.  I found it helpful, though it is from an academic journal so it may be a bit dry to some people...


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Seze

Its making a lot more sense to me now.  The next word I am working on pronouncing correctly is Toruk.  When I listen to Neytiri say it, it comes off as Torduk (the d and English r seem to merge) and even sometimes with a slight trill in it. 


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omängum fra'uti

I think the main difference between the R in "Irayo" and "Torduk" is that the "o" and "u" sound are about as far from the mouth shape needed for "r" as you can get in language.  So more of the vocalized sound comes out due to more time spent forming the appropriate shape.  However that is just my theory.  When I try to say it, it almost comes out like "Tore-duke" mushed together.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Nume fpi sänume

When ive been saying it out loud, ive been putting emphasis on the ra together, making it iRAyo.  Is this the wrong way to be doing it?

Skxawng

Quote from: Nume fpi eyk on December 22, 2009, 07:26:36 PM
When ive been saying it out loud, ive been putting emphasis on the ra together, making it iRAyo.  Is this the wrong way to be doing it?
Thats how ive been saying it


"prrkxentrrkrr is a skill best saved for only the most cunning linguist"

wm.annis

Quote from: Nume fpi eyk on December 22, 2009, 07:26:36 PM
When ive been saying it out loud, ive been putting emphasis on the ra together, making it iRAyo.  Is this the wrong way to be doing it?

From what's given in the Activist Survival Giude word list, it looks to me like the assumed accent is on the final syllable unless otherwise specified.  I'd guess iraYO, since the accent for it isn't marked in that word list.

Seze

I don't thing the a and y should be split up since ay is a diphthong.  Not a linguist so I could easily be wrong on that.  I also noticed that our vocabulary page doesn't underline the stressed part of the word like the Avatar Field Guide does, but irayo didn't have anything underlining in it at all.


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wm.annis

Quote from: Seze on December 22, 2009, 08:02:10 PMI don't thing the a and y should be split up since ay is a diphthong.

Since the -ay- is followed by a vowel and not a consonant, the consonantal value of y wins: i-ra-yo.

Seze

Quote from: wm.annis on December 22, 2009, 08:15:11 PM
Quote from: Seze on December 22, 2009, 08:02:10 PMI don't thing the a and y should be split up since ay is a diphthong.

Since the -ay- is followed by a vowel and not a consonant, the consonantal value of y wins: i-ra-yo.

I am trying to understand why y becomes a consonant.  Where is this rule (diphthong + vowel = broken diphthong + vowel) talked about?  I've tried looking for it on the phonetic pages but can't really find anything. 


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wm.annis

Quote from: Seze on December 22, 2009, 08:34:21 PMI am trying to understand why y becomes a consonant.  Where is this rule (diphthong + vowel = broken diphthong + vowel) talked about?  I've tried looking for it on the phonetic pages but can't really find anything. 

I'm relying on the behavior of every human language I've ever studied.  If Frommer expected this to be different, I'm hoping he would have made a point to mention it in his LL post.  It would be odd enough to warrant mention.  :)

Seze

I'm not a linguist, so I'll take your word on it. The only other language I've ever studied was Spanish (at a pretty basic level no less).


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Abraleth

In practice, would it make a difference if it was pronounced either i-ra-yo or i-ray-o? The sound of both pronunciations seems similar to me.
Ngal Na'viti plltxe tsun srak?
Ngari si nìwoti neu, slä sngä'ike tì'ekoti ne tuteri alahe tìrey fu aytsat amuiä.

Elysio

If you pronounce "-ray-" like the english word then no, it's not the good way. The "a" is much lower in the mouth when you say it in Na'vi.