Author Topic: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap  (Read 27301 times)

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Offline Skxawng

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Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« on: December 22, 2009, 06:12:27 pm »
This topic is for pronouncing R, surprisingly

I have to go to dinner, so if someone would kindly consolidate the information here, or write a description, I'll edit it into the first post and give you credit when I get back on later.



So far, the closest english word that uses it is 'Butter'

Best to remember the scene where Neytiri is saying 'Nari' to Jake, and bops him on the head


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Offline Tiri

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2009, 06:23:02 pm »
http://www.sendspace.com/file/2l74jq mp3 of Neytiri telling Jake "Nari". 17KB.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/eldwok Extended clip with second pronunciation of "Nari". 71KB.

Offline Seze

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2009, 08:50:19 pm »
Just want to make sure I really am getting a handle on the r flap, the word ikran, is seperated out as ik-ran due to stop + liquid (- is syllable break). The pronunciation of ikran, does the r almost have an English l sound to it (iklan)?  It sorta sounds that way when Neytiri says it.  Am I on the right track with this?


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Offline Tiri

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2009, 09:06:25 pm »
Just want to make sure I really am getting a handle on the r flap, the word ikran, is seperated out as ik-ran due to stop + liquid (- is syllable break). The pronunciation of ikran, does the r almost have an English l sound to it (iklan)?  It sorta sounds that way when Neytiri says it.  Am I on the right track with this?

Just for reference: Neytiri saying ikran word, and then a full sentence including ikran. http://www.sendspace.com/file/v0e6al 164KB
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 09:08:32 pm by Tiri »

Offline Seze

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2009, 09:11:41 pm »
Just want to make sure I really am getting a handle on the r flap, the word ikran, is seperated out as ik-ran due to stop + liquid (- is syllable break). The pronunciation of ikran, does the r almost have an English l sound to it (iklan)?  It sorta sounds that way when Neytiri says it.  Am I on the right track with this?

Just for reference: Neytiri saying ikran word, and then a full sentence including ikran. http://www.sendspace.com/file/v0e6al 164KB

This first time I hear ikran, it sounds more like an English r, but the second time, it sounds more like an l.  Are my ears broke?  Which version would be the more correct one?


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Offline Lalexseth

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2009, 11:04:39 pm »
Basically the same as in Japanese. The 'r' comes as more of an 'L' but not quite an 'L'.

If it helps anyone... try to say 'L' and 'T' right on top of eachother. Not quite either... but still both XP

Okay maybe that didn't help so much but basically like japanese 'R'

Offline Ptxèrra

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2009, 02:35:33 am »
velly tlicky but hey to me it works,
but the sound files make it easy to pronounce since you hear what they say and how they say.

and guys keep up the good work, learn your na'vi well.
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Offline Seze

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2009, 04:08:24 pm »
Can some of you phonetical experts verify this?  Someone was asking about the /r/ sound in a different thread and I just wanted to make sure my reply was along the right lines for the /r/ sound.

I had to completely get away from think /r/ is an r, its not.  Whenever I see an /r/ now, I break the word down around the /r/ sound.  Lets take "nari" for example, its "na" + /r/ + "i".  What the /r/ is telling us is that we need to perform an alveolar tap between the "a" and "i".  The tap is nothing more than tapping your tongue on the alveolar ridge while transitioning from the "a" to the "i".  Depending on what your transitioning between, the /r/ may sound like anything from an "d" (nari) to an "l" (ikran) to a mix of "d" and "r" together (toruk).


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Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2009, 08:16:26 pm »
Basically the same as in Japanese. The 'r' comes as more of an 'L' but not quite an 'L'.

If it helps anyone... try to say 'L' and 'T' right on top of eachother. Not quite either... but still both XP

Okay maybe that didn't help so much but basically like japanese 'R'

I agree.  That was the sound construct implied in that word.
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Offline wisnij

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2009, 11:10:07 pm »
It's kind of ironic... I spent a lot of time in my college Japanese courses learning to pronounce that tapped r properly.  Now that I can do it I'm having the opposite problem with Na'vi: sometimes I'll say /ɾ/ when I mean /l/!  It's like my brain has a single "foreign languages" zone, and in that zone /l/ sounds wrong.  -_-
Wé cildra biddaþ þé, éalá láréow, þæt þú taéce ús sprecan rihte, forþám ungelaérede wé sindon, and gewæmmodlíce we sprecaþ.

Offline Na'Vi Dunce

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2009, 04:24:36 pm »
It's actually kind of funny in my case. I thought that the ejectives would be harder than this alveolar flap, but the ejectives seemed to come to me naturally once I figured out the pattern; but when I tried positioning my tongue for the R, the tip just wouldn't seem to flap. And when I thought I had it, it turned out that I was just gargling my throat, since the sound needs to be felt in the front.

Offline idogis1

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2009, 05:50:20 pm »
I really can't think of an equivalent sound in English but it kind of sounds to me like a rolled 'r' in Spanish.

Offline Beduino

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2009, 09:25:50 pm »
I really can't think of an equivalent sound in English but it kind of sounds to me like a rolled 'r' in Spanish.

in English the closest word ppl found was butter
in Spanish you can think of pero or sangre

hope it helped :)
tsun ngal tslam fì'uti srak?

Offline Thalatta

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2009, 08:25:48 pm »
Assuming that it is, in fact, the alveolar flap, and not at all otherwise modified (not lateral, not actually post-alveolar, etc.), then it should be a very easy sound for lots of American English speakers - the sound exists all over: adder, batter, cuddle, dawdle, editor, fodder, gutter, hitter, jaded, kiddies, ladle, meddle, etc. on down the alphabet...

Some of these are more of a stretch than others, obviously, but it can be extremely prevalent if it's already in the pronunciation of a dialect/region.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 08:29:55 pm by Thalatta »

Offline Beduino

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2009, 10:41:09 pm »
Hey guys, I made this video to see if I can help others with the /r/ and /rr/.

It's nothing from another world, but I hope it can help someone   ;D
Just don't laugh at my non-native-english-speaker-accent  :D

Any feed back is welcome ^^

sorry for poor edition, I only have Windows Movie Maker and I don't know how to use it hahahahaha



if ppl aprove it, I'll upload it to talknavi

Irayo!

just a p.s.: It's hard to make it, at least for me.. i had to give like 30 shots xD
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 10:43:27 pm by Beduino »
tsun ngal tslam fì'uti srak?

Offline Neytiria

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2009, 02:12:58 am »
Hey guys, I made this video to see if I can help others with the /r/ and /rr/.

if ppl aprove it, I'll upload it to talknavi

Irayo!

just a p.s.: It's hard to make it, at least for me.. i had to give like 30 shots xD
Irayo. i can do the /r/ sound, similar to the Korean "r", but I can't roll my tounges. Any techniques to teach me how to do /rr/...?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 02:14:34 am by Neytiria »
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Offline txum tukru

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2009, 04:31:26 am »
irayo, i can now do it nearly perfectly!
pesu nga?          "who are you?"
Oe lu toktor.       "the Doctor!"
pesu?                "who?"
nì’aw, toktor.       "just, the Doctor!"

Offline Beduino

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2009, 06:50:24 am »
Kaltxì smúkan sì smuke. Oel ngati kameie.
Glad the vid could help you.

Hey guys, I made this video to see if I can help others with the /r/ and /rr/.

if ppl aprove it, I'll upload it to talknavi

Irayo!

just a p.s.: It's hard to make it, at least for me.. i had to give like 30 shots xD
Irayo. i can do the /r/ sound, similar to the Korean "r", but I can't roll my tounges. Any techniques to teach me how to do /rr/...?

Well, try to do the /r/ sound (your tongue will hit the top of your mouth once)
Than, try to keep the air coming out of your lungs (your tongue should hit the top of your mouth repeatedly).

Notice also that these sounds come from your vocal cords continually, its not only air coming out. The tongue is used just to produce the flap.

Hope it helped   ;)

Eywa ngahu.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 09:50:52 am by Beduino »
tsun ngal tslam fì'uti srak?

Offline 'Itan Eywayä

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2009, 07:01:29 pm »
Hey people,

unfortunetly i cannot think of a method how to learn the "rolling" [r] if you have been unused to it so far, or still are (i know that is a very very common problem for native english speakers), but Beduino presented it pretty much perfectly.
One thing i wanted to point out though, if it helps anybody, is this: German is the exact opposite of English when it comes to the pronunciation of [r] - as here, native german/austrian speakers have the same difficulty when it comes to pronouncing the typical english [r] (as in 'room', 'bar' etc.). So if you can get your hands on some german language samples, it might help at least a little bit.

Offline Tanhì'ite

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Re: Pronouncing that tricky R - The Alveolar flap
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2009, 11:44:02 pm »
I'm finding the rolling 'rr' to be the most difficult. I tried this exercise that I found on wikiHow, and was able to get something close to the desired sound. Maybe with more practice?:

1) Say the word "butter," then say the word "ladder".

2) Feel the tongue on the inside of your mouth "flip up" during the second syllable, barely touching the gum above and behind the top row of teeth, almost touching the roof your mouth.

3) Now say each word faster, "Butter, butter, butter, ladder, ladder, ladder".

4) Continue saying the words faster and faster. If you prefer one of the words, you may use it exclusively. Eventually you'll produce a sound like: Bu""""" (the """ representing the trilling motion), or La"""". Then try the "RR" in Spanish (ER"""RE).
http://www.wikihow.com/Roll-Your-%22R%22s]

[url]http://www.wikihow.com/Roll-Your-%22R%22s
[/url]

ma tsmukan : Tanhì'itan

 

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