Author Topic: Stress of oeng and ayoeng  (Read 1725 times)

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Offline Plumps

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Stress of oeng and ayoeng
« on: August 27, 2013, 01:47:32 pm »
Just noticed … why is the IPA of oeng given as /'wɛŋ/ ? I’d expect /'o.ɛŋ/ at least in careful speech.

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Stress of oeng and ayoeng
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 02:00:20 pm »
Just noticed … why is the IPA of oeng given as /'wɛŋ/ ? I’d expect /'o.ɛŋ/ at least in careful speech.
Yes, I noticed just now too. Second form seems to be correct, while first one is also possible in fast speech. But I don't remember I ever heard to pronounce it this way...
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Stress of oeng and ayoeng
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 02:17:54 pm »
Funny what it will be reveal by a guide.... :)

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Stress of oeng and ayoeng
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 02:37:34 pm »
We know that ayoeng is "ayWENG".. and never never "aYOeng" So it seems to me that the consensus with the oe thing is:

O.e
o.EL
o.E.ti
o.E.ru
o.E.ri
o.ENG

That's how I've thought of it anyway. Plus, How does it really make sense that oeng would be pronounced as weng in short speech if the stress is normally on the o? ??? If the stress were on the o, one would think the fast speech version would be closer to Ong.. :-\

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Stress of oeng and ayoeng
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2013, 02:57:45 pm »
Finally found it: See here.

We know that ayoeng is "ayWENG".. and never never "aYOeng"

Why not? Alright, in Berlin he said the same thing to me (“OK, I always pronounce it as ayWENG” – and now I could fräpìp mì tìm for not asking further but we were in a hurry…) but in very, very careful speech, I can imagine that you would say ayOeng (or aYOeng, how-ever you want to syllabify that ;) )

So it seems to me that the consensus with the oe thing is:

O.e
o.EL
o.E.ti
o.E.ru
o.E.ri
o.ENG

That's how I've thought of it anyway. Plus, How does it really make sense that oeng would be pronounced as weng in short speech if the stress is normally on the o? ??? If the stress were on the o, one would think the fast speech version would be closer to Ong.. :-\
See link above … I think (if you pronounce it carefully) the stress would remain on O the whole time.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Stress of oeng and ayoeng
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2013, 03:02:53 pm »
Finally found it: See here.

We know that ayoeng is "ayWENG".. and never never "aYOeng"

Why not? Alright, in Berlin he said the same thing to me (“OK, I always pronounce it as ayWENG” – and now I could fräpìp mì tìm for not asking further but we were in a hurry…) but in very, very careful speech, I can imagine that you would say ayOeng (or aYOeng, how-ever you want to syllabify that ;) )

So it seems to me that the consensus with the oe thing is:

O.e
o.EL
o.E.ti
o.E.ru
o.E.ri
o.ENG

That's how I've thought of it anyway. Plus, How does it really make sense that oeng would be pronounced as weng in short speech if the stress is normally on the o? ??? If the stress were on the o, one would think the fast speech version would be closer to Ong.. :-\
See link above … I think (if you pronounce it carefully) the stress would remain on O the whole time.

Nice find! :D :O Says nothing about stress though... :-\

There's a pretty significant difference between ayweng and *ayoeng. I would imagine that if you were to carefully pronounce "ayoeng", you would get ay.o.eng otherwise "ayweng"

*EDIT x 100*

I find that when "the word ends with oe", the O is stressed. Otherwise "weh" would pretty much mean that the o is so unstressed that the e gets stressed? O.o
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 03:09:05 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Stress of oeng and ayoeng
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2013, 03:04:30 pm »
Should I remove the underlined "o" in my guide or let like is? I'm confused...

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Stress of oeng and ayoeng
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2013, 03:18:28 pm »
Nice find! :D :O Says nothing about stress though... :-\

There's a pretty significant difference between ayweng and *ayoeng. I would imagine that if you were to carefully pronounce "ayoeng", you would get ay.o.eng otherwise "ayweng"
I noticed that as well :P

I don’t agree ;) but we don’t have to all the time :P
My take on this is, if the stress doesn’t change with infixes and case endings why would it suddenly be *o.E.ru or *o.EL?

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Stress of oeng and ayoeng
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2013, 03:36:39 pm »
That's a common question: What's up with the stress change in oe when suffixed? Answer: I have no idea. It just is what it is. Hey. If Pawl comes out and says that in careful speech, oeng and ayoeng have the stress on o, I would be just surprised and would totally accept that. :)

EDIT - splitting this topic about oeng/ayoeng stress out of the dictionary if that's cool.
DOUBLE EDIT - nevermind. looks like I can't O.o
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 03:55:41 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Re: Stress of oeng and ayoeng
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2013, 09:34:45 pm »
Ma Tirea, I wonder if your attempts to split out the topic resulted in the strange errors I was getting when trying to post to the dictionary thread. They were so unusual that I actually called Marki, as they looked like some sort of spam hijacking (now, I am pretty sure they were not).

One of the most important takeaways I got from AvatarMeet this year was hearing Pawl pronounce words like oeru. He did 'wer-du' versus 'o-we-dru'. This is very important, I think, for the pronouns, and deserves special attention. Since EE will support having more than one section of IPA in the IPA field (and I doubt it gets searched on much), I think we could list both forms like (If this was in the dictionary). "oe.ru but more commonly wer.du" .

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Re: Stress of oeng and ayoeng
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2013, 08:50:59 am »
What about to check out Pawl's audio examples on Na'viteri?

Edit:
I couldn't find any audio example with oeng on Na'viteri...
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 09:01:02 am by Tìtstewan »

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Re: Stress of oeng and ayoeng
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2013, 10:25:54 am »
But there is one on YouTube I remember vividly ;D

At 4'00 he has: oeyä ikran slivu nga, tsakrr oeng ’awsiteng mivakto



Well, he doesn’t pronounce it /weng/ that’s for sure … but I think the stress is on /o.'eng/ there.
Mìftxele, I wrote him a short mail this morning. I’ll post something once he has answered.

Oh, and there is this from Na’viteri:

Oe new ngahu ’awsiteng tìkangkem sivi–ke new futa wäsivul oeng.

Again, I hear /o.'eng/ … but then again, most of the time there is a sìlpey oe I understand the (secondary) stress (of the phrase) to be on
/sɪl.ˈpɛj o.ˈɛ/ and not /sɪl.ˈpɛj ˈo.ɛ/ as it ‘should’ be. But maybe that’s just me :P After all, there is a difference between ‘recommended’ pronunciation and how words and stress(!) influence each other within a sentence.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 10:40:41 am by Plumps »

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Re: Stress of oeng and ayoeng
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2013, 12:39:48 pm »
Interesting things indeed. It would seem that it's /o.'eng/ Which makes sense to me. But you're also right about the sìlpey oe thing. It does kinda seem like he's saying /sil.'pey o.'e/

I guess let's just wait and see what he says. :)

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Re: Stress of oeng and ayoeng
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2013, 07:38:37 am »
Well, Confirmatione is revealed here. :)

Edit:
Why this thread is sticky?

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Stress of oeng and ayoeng
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2013, 10:34:15 am »
Well, Confirmatione is revealed here. :)

Edit:
Why this thread is sticky?


No idea about the sticky. Was it me? IF so, didn't mean to do that. Either way, unstickied. :)

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