Author Topic: Trilled rr's  (Read 4093 times)

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akiwiguy

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Trilled rr's
« on: June 18, 2011, 12:05:24 am »
I'm reasonable at pronunciation, but I can't do a trilled rr at all.
Last time I tried I started coughing. I probably wasn't doing it right.
I've heard people do it, but I just can't master it.
How do you [say/speak/pronounce] the trilled rr?

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2011, 12:18:29 am »
Can't count how many times I've seen this topic HRH...

Its quite a popular question, as many are like you. I heard that 1 in 4000[?] have a mouth shape that makes it impossible physically. On the other hand, I have heard stories of people going from not at all able to do it to practicing and eventually being able to do it. Describing it is difficult. Main point is that the air flow causes rapid flapping vibration of the front end of the tongue from a relaxed state in the front of the mouth, right behind the teeth.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 12:21:56 am by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Amaya

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2011, 12:45:01 am »
Were you trying to do it "french-style"? ???  That's the only explanation I could come up with for it making you cough.

Here's an exercise for you.  First, let your mouth relax open and let out a strong breath "Huhhhhh"

break

Now open your mouth and make the motion for an "L".  Slide the tip of your tongue back a bit until it moves from the back of the teeth onto the hard palate.  Feel the shape of the inside of your mouth, make yourself aware of what the position of your tongue, jaws and cheeks feels like.

Now repeat the first exercise, but instead of just letting your tongue rest in the bottom of your mouth, bring the tip up toward that place on the hard palate.  You need to make it quite a forceful breath for this to work, but when your tongue is most of the way up but BEFORE IT TOUCHES THE PALATE you should begin to feel/hear it vibrate.

Practice, practice, practice!!!

Offline Smaoe

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2011, 09:57:52 pm »
Can't count how many times I've seen this topic HRH...

Its quite a popular question, as many are like you. I heard that 1 in 4000[?] have a mouth shape that makes it impossible physically. On the other hand, I have heard stories of people going from not at all able to do it to practicing and eventually being able to do it. Describing it is difficult. Main point is that the air flow causes rapid flapping vibration of the front end of the tongue from a relaxed state in the front of the mouth, right behind the teeth.

I've had this difficulty for quite a while and several people have tried teaching me how to make the rr sound, but none have been successful. I might have the shape of the mouth that makes it impossible to make the noise. Is there any substitute ways to make the noise?  ???

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2011, 10:08:55 pm »
I would understand you if you tried your best. of course then again, the funny thing is, most people on here dont get to SPEAK to each other. I'm a big fan of VoIP such as Teamspeak and Skype. Outside meetups, those are the only chance to speak. the only reason I bring this up is, it doesnt really matter if one can/cannot trill 'rr if one only needs to communicate via writing.

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Offline 'Itan Atxur

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2011, 10:09:43 pm »
I had the advantage of taking 3 years of German. I had no choice but to master it, hrh.

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2011, 10:13:37 pm »
I had the advantage of taking 3 years of German. I had no choice but to master it, hrh.

I took 2 so far and not once did we need to say the 'rr [alveolar trill]. or even the rer [alveolar flap]. I'm not even sure what I'd call what our lehrer pronounced german r as. it reminded me of French, actually.

EDIT: It was voiced uvular fricative, [ʁ] but that sound is not in Na'vi.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 10:18:50 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2011, 10:21:43 pm »
I had the advantage of taking 3 years of German. I had no choice but to master it, hrh.

I took 2 so far and not once did we need to say the 'rr [alveolar trill]. or even the rer [alveolar flap]. I'm not even sure what I'd call what our lehrer pronounced german r as. it reminded me of French, actually.

EDIT: I think it was voiced uvular fricative, [ʁ] but that sound is not in Na'vi.

From that audio example, I would say most Germans employ the "voiced uvular fricative" sound, which we do use very often in French as well. Some Germans roll their r's, but I think they're not very common. :)

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2011, 10:52:17 pm »
I had the advantage of taking 3 years of German. I had no choice but to master it, hrh.

I took 2 so far and not once did we need to say the 'rr [alveolar trill]. or even the rer [alveolar flap]. I'm not even sure what I'd call what our lehrer pronounced german r as. it reminded me of French, actually.

EDIT: I think it was voiced uvular fricative, [ʁ] but that sound is not in Na'vi.

From that audio example, I would say most Germans employ the "voiced uvular fricative" sound, which we do use very often in French as well. Some Germans roll their r's, but I think they're not very common. :)

...and if they do, it's probably just as guttural as [ʁ]: [ʀ]

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2011, 10:57:35 pm »
Some people honestly can't even tell the difference...  My (thank goodness) ex and I took Japanese together, and I tried numerous times to explain to him the difference between the uvular frictive sound he was making and the proper alveolar flap but he just gave me a confused look ???

Oh GODS you have no idea how irritating it is to hear someone speaking Japanese using the "French R"...I wanted to throttle him! >:(

 ;D ;D ;D but then, I have what I call "Older Sister Syndrome", in which I'm constantly wanting to correct people's pronunciation of words. ;)

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2011, 02:23:29 am »
From that audio example, I would say most Germans employ the "voiced uvular fricative" sound, which we do use very often in French as well. Some Germans roll their r's, but I think they're not very common. :)

Don’t count on that ;)
The further south you go the more rolled r’s you’ll find ;) Plus there are influences in the east from Sorbian Language and Silesian dialect. My grandmother trills her r’s for example because she has Silesian roots.


From that audio example, I would say most Germans employ the "voiced uvular fricative" sound, which we do use very often in French as well. Some Germans roll their r's, but I think they're not very common. :)

...and if they do, it's probably just as guttural as [ʁ]: [ʀ]

Hm, the Wiki Audio sample doesn’t really make a difference, does it? ??? At least I can’t hear it.

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2011, 04:08:14 am »
Were you trying to do it "french-style"? ???  That's the only explanation I could come up with for it making you cough.

Here's an exercise for you.  First, let your mouth relax open and let out a strong breath "Huhhhhh"

break

Now open your mouth and make the motion for an "L".  Slide the tip of your tongue back a bit until it moves from the back of the teeth onto the hard palate.  Feel the shape of the inside of your mouth, make yourself aware of what the position of your tongue, jaws and cheeks feels like.

Now repeat the first exercise, but instead of just letting your tongue rest in the bottom of your mouth, bring the tip up toward that place on the hard palate.  You need to make it quite a forceful breath for this to work, but when your tongue is most of the way up but BEFORE IT TOUCHES THE PALATE you should begin to feel/hear it vibrate.

Practice, practice, practice!!!

Wait, did I hear a trilled rr after doing this exercise for about an hour straight!? Perhaps this isn't impossible for me to do after all. If not I'm going to be so happy. HRH.  ;D

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2011, 06:20:56 am »
From that audio example, I would say most Germans employ the "voiced uvular fricative" sound, which we do use very often in French as well. Some Germans roll their r's, but I think they're not very common. :)

Don’t count on that ;)
The further south you go the more rolled r’s you’ll find ;) Plus there are influences in the east from Sorbian Language and Silesian dialect. My grandmother trills her r’s for example because she has Silesian roots.

Oh, that's interesting! :) I guess I just assumed that the entire country pronounced their r's like in the North, the only part that I actually know well, but it was not very clever of me to do so. ;)

Ma Smaoe, it's nice to hear that it starts to work fine with you. :D Don't give up!

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2011, 11:13:23 am »
Were you trying to do it "french-style"? ???  That's the only explanation I could come up with for it making you cough.

Here's an exercise for you.  First, let your mouth relax open and let out a strong breath "Huhhhhh"

break

Now open your mouth and make the motion for an "L".  Slide the tip of your tongue back a bit until it moves from the back of the teeth onto the hard palate.  Feel the shape of the inside of your mouth, make yourself aware of what the position of your tongue, jaws and cheeks feels like.

Now repeat the first exercise, but instead of just letting your tongue rest in the bottom of your mouth, bring the tip up toward that place on the hard palate.  You need to make it quite a forceful breath for this to work, but when your tongue is most of the way up but BEFORE IT TOUCHES THE PALATE you should begin to feel/hear it vibrate.

Practice, practice, practice!!!

Wait, did I hear a trilled rr after doing this exercise for about an hour straight!? Perhaps this isn't impossible for me to do after all. If not I'm going to be so happy. HRH.  ;D


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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2011, 11:34:58 am »
Were you trying to do it "french-style"? ???  That's the only explanation I could come up with for it making you cough.

Here's an exercise for you.  First, let your mouth relax open and let out a strong breath "Huhhhhh"

break

Now open your mouth and make the motion for an "L".  Slide the tip of your tongue back a bit until it moves from the back of the teeth onto the hard palate.  Feel the shape of the inside of your mouth, make yourself aware of what the position of your tongue, jaws and cheeks feels like.

Now repeat the first exercise, but instead of just letting your tongue rest in the bottom of your mouth, bring the tip up toward that place on the hard palate.  You need to make it quite a forceful breath for this to work, but when your tongue is most of the way up but BEFORE IT TOUCHES THE PALATE you should begin to feel/hear it vibrate.

Practice, practice, practice!!!

Wait, did I hear a trilled rr after doing this exercise for about an hour straight!? Perhaps this isn't impossible for me to do after all. If not I'm going to be so happy. HRH.  ;D

Yay! So glad I could help!
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 11:36:49 am by Amaya »

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2011, 02:16:20 pm »
Were you trying to do it "french-style"? ???  That's the only explanation I could come up with for it making you cough.

Here's an exercise for you.  First, let your mouth relax open and let out a strong breath "Huhhhhh"

break

Now open your mouth and make the motion for an "L".  Slide the tip of your tongue back a bit until it moves from the back of the teeth onto the hard palate.  Feel the shape of the inside of your mouth, make yourself aware of what the position of your tongue, jaws and cheeks feels like.

Now repeat the first exercise, but instead of just letting your tongue rest in the bottom of your mouth, bring the tip up toward that place on the hard palate.  You need to make it quite a forceful breath for this to work, but when your tongue is most of the way up but BEFORE IT TOUCHES THE PALATE you should begin to feel/hear it vibrate.

Practice, practice, practice!!!

Wait, did I hear a trilled rr after doing this exercise for about an hour straight!? Perhaps this isn't impossible for me to do after all. If not I'm going to be so happy. HRH.  ;D

Yay! So glad I could help!
No mastery without practice. :)
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2011, 04:18:51 pm »
Srane, practice makes perfect.  :)

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2011, 05:38:47 am »
Irayo! That's been the hardest sound for me to pronounce for ever. I've tried to learn two other languages with the trilled rr (not as strong as in Na'vi), and failed miserably, but that exercise gave me my first bit of hope in ages!!   ;D

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2011, 11:27:50 pm »
Okay so...it's been like over a year for me and I swear I'm only just getting the hang of the 'rr!! As in, it's only just starting to sound natural. Phew, gotta keep practising!

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Re: Trilled rr's
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2011, 11:30:44 pm »
Okay so...it's been like over a year for me and I swear I'm only just getting the hang of the 'rr!! As in, it's only just starting to sound natural. Phew, gotta keep practising!

great to hear that it's starting to pay off! :D

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