Trills for the Native English Speaker

Seze · December 21, 2009, 11:10:47 PM

So I am noticing that Na'vi has trilled sounds in it. My tongue, currently, doesn't trill very well (or at all). Any suggestions on how to pick this up? I have tried searching online, but I haven't found anything that works for me yet.

Tirealì'u · December 21, 2009, 11:17:07 PM

I luckily picked that up from Spanish - and sounding 'cool' in Japanese. :-P

Regretfully, I'm not sure how to suggest picking that up. I was fortunate that I just sort of 'got it'. I know some people have a very difficult time of it, though.

Skxawng · December 21, 2009, 11:20:13 PM

Try makin' engine or machine gun noises ?

if you can get a basic trill, just try doing that for extended periods of time (until your breath runs out, for example) Then try doing the same thing, but moving your mouth and jaw around to get different sounds. do it before you go to sleep, eventually you'll develop muscle memory for getting your mouth into the right position.

If you can't trill, this may help:
http://www.wikihow.com/Roll-Your-%22R%22s

Seze · December 21, 2009, 11:25:07 PM

My problem is that I can't get the initial basic trill going.

wisnij · December 21, 2009, 11:40:12 PM

Pretend you're a kitty! Prrrrrrrrr

Seriously though, I recall having this problem taking Spanish back in junior high. The best way I can think to describe it is, position your tongue so that the tip is almost touching the roof of your mouth, tensed, and breathe out strongly. The out-flowing air should make it vibrate in a trill-like fashion. Once you feel it happen it should be easier to do deliberately.

Tirealì'u · December 21, 2009, 11:46:38 PM

Quote from: wisnij on December 21, 2009, 11:40:12 PM
Pretend you're a kitty! Prrrrrrrrr

It'd help you get in touch with your inner-Na'vi... :-)

Seze · December 21, 2009, 11:51:00 PM

Quote from: Tireamorki on December 21, 2009, 11:46:38 PM
Quote from: wisnij on December 21, 2009, 11:40:12 PM
Pretend you're a kitty! Prrrrrrrrr

It'd help you get in touch with your inner-Na'vi... :-)

After watching the movie, oh 5 or 6 times now, I am starting to see how people are seeing similarities between the cat and the Na'vi, though I still don't think the Na'vi look like cats...

wisnij · December 21, 2009, 11:53:34 PM

Quote from: Tireamorki on December 21, 2009, 11:46:38 PM
Quote from: wisnij on December 21, 2009, 11:40:12 PM
Pretend you're a kitty! Prrrrrrrrr

It'd help you get in touch with your inner-Na'vi... :-)

>:3

EYWA ANAWM, NANTANG LÄNGU! NE KUNSÌP!

(sorry)

Seze · December 21, 2009, 11:54:03 PM

Quote from: wisnij on December 21, 2009, 11:40:12 PM
Pretend you're a kitty! Prrrrrrrrr

Seriously though, I recall having this problem taking Spanish back in junior high. The best way I can think to describe it is, position your tongue so that the tip is almost touching the roof of your mouth, tensed, and breathe out strongly. The out-flowing air should make it vibrate in a trill-like fashion. Once you feel it happen it should be easier to do deliberately.

I can't tell which part is vibrating, my tongue or my lips... I will keep working on it though...

Eywa aynaghu

Karyu Amawey · December 21, 2009, 11:56:06 PM

I've researched the Na'Vi language thus far phonologically, and though there may appear to be trills, there really aren't. As a matter of fact, the sound that you hear that you think is a trill is a sound that we use in English all the time, but we don't know it. When you say butter, the tt sound you make is not actually buh-ter but actually a quick alveolar flap

Seze · December 21, 2009, 11:59:18 PM

Quote from: Karyu amawey on December 21, 2009, 11:56:06 PM
I've researched the Na'Vi language thus far phonologically, and though there may appear to be trills, there really aren't. As a matter of fact, the sound that you hear that you think is a trill is a sound that we use in English all the time, but we don't know it. When you say butter, the tt sound you make is not actually buh-ter but actually a quick alveolar flap

Interesting, though I have noticed in many of the Frommer interviews that there seems to be, to my untrained phonetic ear, trilled rr's and ll's.

Skxawng · December 22, 2009, 12:04:05 AM

Quote from: snowyfox on December 21, 2009, 11:59:18 PM
Interesting, though I have noticed in many of the Frommer interviews that there seems to be, to my untrained phonetic ear, trilled rr's and ll's.

I'm pretty sure I heard a trilled R at least once in the movie, but I can't be sure... next time I go see it I'll listen for it.

wisnij · December 22, 2009, 12:04:46 AM

Quote from: Karyu amawey on December 21, 2009, 11:56:06 PM
I've researched the Na'Vi language thus far phonologically, and though there may appear to be trills, there really aren't. As a matter of fact, the sound that you hear that you think is a trill is a sound that we use in English all the time, but we don't know it. When you say butter, the tt sound you make is not actually buh-ter but actually a quick alveolar flap

The single "r" is indeed a flap, but the syllabic "rr" in words like vrrtep "demon" is "very strongly trilled" according to Frommer.

Tirealì'u · December 22, 2009, 12:18:46 AM

Right. So, in Nari, for example, you have an r with more of a flap. Hrrap, however, is a definite trill.

EPILEFMAN · December 22, 2009, 12:21:19 AM

which words do Na'vi trill?

Skxawng · December 22, 2009, 12:22:20 AM

Quote from: EPILEFMAN on December 22, 2009, 12:21:19 AM
which words do Na'vi trill?

Any words containing a rr or a ll (though I think the ll is less intense than the rr)

wisnij · December 22, 2009, 12:25:31 AM

Quote from: EPILEFMAN on December 22, 2009, 12:21:19 AM
which words do Na'vi trill?

Attested words so far:

hrrap "danger"
krr "time" (and words derived from it)
lrrtok "smile"
trr "day"
vrrtep "demon"
wrrpa "outside"

Seze · December 22, 2009, 12:26:26 AM

Quote from: Tireamorki on December 22, 2009, 12:18:46 AM
Right. So, in Nari, for example, you have an r with more of a flap. Hrrap, however, is a definite trill.

The whole r flap thing still confuses me a bit, and I blame English for that. So in nari, the r sounds like a d, and when I watch the movie, I hear toruk pronounced sometimes with more of an English r and sometimes with the d along with a hint of r. Maybe it would be best if someone explained what the r flap is in more detail...

Tirealì'u · December 22, 2009, 12:30:38 AM

I guess it is kind of hard to explain...

I studied Japanese, so I had to get use to 'r' sounding like an 'l'', and I think this is fairly similar (although a bit different of a sound.) To do that, you said 'r', but with the tip of your tongue pressed up against the roof of your mouth, just behind your incisors.

I think I am getting the right sound (maybe) by doing the same thing, but forcing a bit more air through with that flap.

Or something. :-P

edit: When you're trying to do that, try saying 'ri' or 'ru'... as an r itself isn't going to cut it. :-)

wisnij · December 22, 2009, 12:32:06 AM

Well, in English "d" and "t" can both sometimes be realized as a flap -- e.g. in "butter" or "ladder". We don't contrast the sounds so it's sometimes hard to hear the difference, even when we're the ones saying it. (Native speakers of Japanese have the same problem with English l and r, for instance.) Since Na'vi doesn't contain /d/ as a distinct phoneme, I imagine that "r" can sometimes be realized as somewhere inbetween the two sounds (linguists call this an allophone).