Author Topic: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels  (Read 1302 times)

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Offline Vawmataw

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Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« on: February 19, 2015, 07:42:16 pm »
According to the Horen LeNa'vi, a syllable with a pseudovowel must start with a consonant or consonant cluster and must not have a final consonant [...].

So:
- rr and ll are the pseudovowels.
- You need something before the it (ex.: krr/vll)
- You cannot have a final consonant (krrt is impossible). Nothing is said about the final vowels.

Does it mean that any syllable with a pseudovowel and ending with a vowel would possible? If you read Karyu Pawl's articles, the answer seems to be no. You say nrr.a, not nrra, krr.a, not krra.

So?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 08:07:20 pm by Vawmataw »
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2015, 07:57:31 pm »
There are 2 syllables: krr.o And I don't understand what is unclear ???
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2015, 08:02:16 pm »
I never pretended that krro has only one syllable. :)

Also, I edited my post. I hope it is more understandable.
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2015, 08:30:16 pm »
Does it mean that any syllable with a pseudovowel and ending with a vowel would possible?

I think it's possible to create any word with two syllables: the first with pseudovowel and the second which contains one vowel only. I.e. krr + o. I don't understand what is the issue ???
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2015, 08:44:15 pm »
Is the section 2.1.4. of the Horen LeNa'vi totally correct, which means, according to my interpretation, that we can have vowel-ending syllables with pseudovowels, or not? Or I'm wrong and I need some clarifications.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 08:53:35 pm by Vawmataw »
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2015, 09:15:58 pm »
we can have vowel-ending syllables with pseudovowels, or not?

One vowel makes one syllable. So if there are two vowels (or pseudovowels, because in Na'vi pseudovowels work as vowels), there are two syllables. One syllable couldn't contain multiple vowels.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2015, 11:41:45 pm »
I didn't get the question of the problem, but I am agree with Kemaweyan. :)
Ma Vawmataw, if you refer that word I used in the introduction board, (that new topic there), it's trr-ey - 2 syllable. :)

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Offline Wllìm

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2015, 02:17:13 am »
we can have vowel-ending syllables with pseudovowels, or not?

One vowel makes one syllable. So if there are two vowels (or pseudovowels, because in Na'vi pseudovowels work as vowels), there are two syllables. One syllable couldn't contain multiple vowels.

This. A syllable has this structure: optionally start with a consonant (or consonant cluster), then a vowel (or pseudovowel), then optionally end with a consonant. So, when you fill the "vowel slot" with a pseudovowel, you can't put another vowel in the syllable.
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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2015, 03:13:37 am »
we can have vowel-ending syllables with pseudovowels, or not?

One vowel makes one syllable. So if there are two vowels (or pseudovowels, because in Na'vi pseudovowels work as vowels), there are two syllables. One syllable couldn't contain multiple vowels.

This. A syllable has this structure: optionally start with a consonant (or consonant cluster), then a vowel (or pseudovowel), then optionally end with a consonant. So, when you fill the "vowel slot" with a pseudovowel, you can't put another vowel in the syllable.
Exactly. In single syllable can be just one vowel. If syllable has two vowels, it is not single syllable anymore.
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2015, 08:23:15 am »
we can have vowel-ending syllables with pseudovowels, or not?

One vowel makes one syllable. So if there are two vowels (or pseudovowels, because in Na'vi pseudovowels work as vowels), there are two syllables. One syllable couldn't contain multiple vowels.

This. A syllable has this structure: optionally start with a consonant (or consonant cluster), then a vowel (or pseudovowel), then optionally end with a consonant. So, when you fill the "vowel slot" with a pseudovowel, you can't put another vowel in the syllable.
Exactly. In single syllable can be just one vowel. If syllable has two vowels, it is not single syllable anymore.

Right on.

According to the Horen LeNa'vi, a syllable with a pseudovowel must start with a consonant or consonant cluster and must not have a final consonant [...].
Right.

Quote
So:
- rr and ll are the pseudovowels. //right.
- You need something before it (ex.: krr/vll) //yes. This is also why mì 'Rrta is legal even though it is known mì causes lenition and ' disappears under normal lenition rules
- You cannot have a final consonant (krrt is impossible). Nothing is said about the final vowels. //and there's a reason for this ;)

Quote
Does it mean that any syllable with a pseudovowel and ending with a vowel would possible? If you read Karyu Pawl's articles, the answer seems to be no. You say nrr.a, not nrra, krr.a, not krra.

So?
Right. The answer is no, for the reasons that Blue Elf and Wllìm and Kemaweyan say.


/ = "or"
( ) = character group
< > = optional

All legal syllables:

#consonants
C = ('/f/h/k/kx/l/m/n/ng/o/p/px/r/s/t/ts/tx/v/w/y/z)
#vowels
V = (a/ä/e/i/ì/o/u)
#pseudovowels
P = (ll/rr)
#clusters
Q = (f/s/ts)(k/kx/l/m/n/ng/p/px/r/t/tx)

#SYLLABLE:

#onset
O = <(C/Q)>
#nucleus
N = (V/P)
#coda
K = <(C)> IF N == V ELSE K = NULL
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 08:29:42 am by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2015, 12:59:24 pm »
Interesting way of describing syllable structure, but:
- diphthongs aren't mentioned (ay/aw/ey/ew), they work like vowel
- easier way to show syllable structure is (V = vowel/rr/ll/diphthong, C = consonant, all what is not vowel):
V - simplest syllable
CV
CCV
VC
CVC
CCVC
Note, that initial CC is consonant cluster and you can't use any consonant here, also final C can't be any consonant. See Horen for more info (you've probably already read that)
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Offline Wllìm

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2015, 01:43:31 pm »
I once made a regex matching exactly all valid Na'vi syllables:

((((f|s|ts)(px|tx|kx|p|t|k|m|n|ng|r|l|w|y))|(px|tx|kx|p|t|k|\'|ts|f|s|h|v|z|m|n|ng|r|l|w|y))?(aw|ay|ew|ey|i|ì|u|e|o|ä|a)(px|tx|kx|p|t|k|\'|m|ng|n|r|l)?)|((((f|s|ts)(px|tx|kx|p|t|k|m|ng|n|r|l|w|y))|(px|tx|kx|p|t|k|\'|ts|f|s|h|v|z|m|ng|n|r|l|w|y))(ll|rr))


Go to this site, copy-paste the regex in the upper field and put some characters in the lower field; if the characters get a coloured background, it is a Na'vi syllable :)

See also here :)
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2015, 01:59:26 pm »
I once made a regex matching exactly all valid Na'vi syllables:

((((f|s|ts)(px|tx|kx|p|t|k|m|n|ng|r|l|w|y))|(px|tx|kx|p|t|k|\'|ts|f|s|h|v|z|m|n|ng|r|l|w|y))?(aw|ay|ew|ey|i|ì|u|e|o|ä|a)(px|tx|kx|p|t|k|\'|m|ng|n|r|l)?)|((((f|s|ts)(px|tx|kx|p|t|k|m|ng|n|r|l|w|y))|(px|tx|kx|p|t|k|\'|ts|f|s|h|v|z|m|ng|n|r|l|w|y))(ll|rr))


Go to this site, copy-paste the regex in the upper field and put some characters in the lower field; if the characters get a coloured background, it is a Na'vi syllable :)

See also here :)

Ah yes. I forgot diphthongs.

+1 for that beautiful regex, for sure. I can't get it to like syllables like prr or pll. (try typing in plltxe or prrnen)

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2015, 06:58:42 pm »
(or pseudovowels, because in Na'vi pseudovowels work as vowels)
O buts! Oe ke lu kanu kaw'it!
Fortunately, there are people like you, Titstewan, Tirea Aean, Blue Elf, Plumps and more!

I think a small change is needed in the Horen. That's one of the main reasons that made me post here.

Nvngkp, the regex is cool.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 07:29:35 pm by Vawmataw »
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2015, 07:54:07 pm »
I think a change is needed in the Horen. That's one of the main reasons that made me post here.
What exactly need to be changed? ??? Note, that Horen leNa'vi is not written for easy read or understanding.

A syllable with a pseudovowel must start with a consonant or consonant cluster and must
not have a final consonant; this plays a role in lenition (§2.2.1) and noun declension (§3.1.1.5).

Means simply:
A pseudovowel have to start with a consonant or consonant cluster [f, s, ts + p, t, k, px, tx, kx, m, n, ng, r, l, w, y], like krr or flrr.
A syllable that contain a pseudovowel, can't have a single consonant as final consonat, so *krrt is not possible, but krra or kllte is, of course, possible, because it's made by two syllable: krr-a, kll-te or, trr-ay
Also, a pseudovowel syllable can't end with an vowel or diphthong, becuase it will be read always as two syllable.

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2015, 08:37:25 pm »
Quote
Also, a pseudovowel syllable can't end with an vowel or diphthong, becuase it will be read always as two syllable.
I'm aware that the Horen was not made for young teens, but is it ''written'' somewhere else that pseudovowels work like this?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 08:57:16 pm by Vawmataw »
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2015, 04:28:12 am »
In
Quote from: Horen 3.1.1.5
Words that end in the pseudo-vowels ll and rr take the consonant endings: trr-ä, ’ewll-it.
:)

Quote from: your signature
Proud supporter of the LEGAL syllables rrr and lll.
...Horen 2.3.2

Pseudovowel Contraction. Due to the shape of the aspect infixes, <er> and <ol>, it is
possible for the pseudovowels to occur immediately after their consonantal counterpart, as in
*p<ol>lltxe. When this happens in an unstressed syllable, the pseudovowel disappears, poltxe.
In a stressed syllable, the infix disappears, *f<er>rrfen > frrfen. Pseudovowels in monsyllables
behave as though unaccented, vol from *v<ol>ll.


http://forum.learnnavi.org/intermediate/lll-or-rrr/
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 07:12:53 am by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Vowels and syllables with pseudovowels
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2015, 12:01:34 pm »
I think a change is needed in the Horen. That's one of the main reasons that made me post here.
What exactly need to be changed? ??? Note, that Horen leNa'vi is not written for easy read or understanding.

A syllable with a pseudovowel must start with a consonant or consonant cluster and must
not have a final consonant; this plays a role in lenition (§2.2.1) and noun declension (§3.1.1.5).

Means simply:
A pseudovowel have to start with a consonant or consonant cluster [f, s, ts + p, t, k, px, tx, kx, m, n, ng, r, l, w, y], like krr or flrr.
A syllable that contain a pseudovowel, can't have a single consonant as final consonat, so *krrt is not possible, but krra or kllte is, of course, possible, because it's made by two syllable: krr-a, kll-te or, trr-ay Also, a pseudovowel syllable can't end with an vowel or diphthong, becuase it will be read always as two syllable.

Righto. The only thing that makes ll and rr not like the seven vowels is those facts you just said.

LegalIllegal
kinklln
omrrm
all
ta
trr

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