Author Topic: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds  (Read 5101 times)

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Offline Yayo

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Re: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2011, 08:20:41 pm »
This sounds intriguing...


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Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2011, 08:42:44 pm »
Lucid dreaming on its own is 100% No Pseudoscience Guaranteed.

Why? The general scientific community actually uses lucid dreams to conduct research, such as on the passage of dream time vs. real time.

However, believing that by lucid dreaming you are doing something spiritual or projecting your tirea out of your tokx is...Some Pseudoscience Guaranteed. You can read the Lucidity Institute's various research papers (or their detechnicalized versions) to see that Out-of-body Experiences are actually quite In-the-body Dreams.
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Offline Tsyal Maktoyu

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Re: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2011, 03:20:55 am »
When you say "pseudoscience", are you using it as a term of insult, or simply to define something that doesn't follow the scientific method? Because if it's the former, you just insulted a good amount of people that have posted in this thread (let's not be iconoclasts, here, if someone holds spiritual beliefs, we should respect them), if it's the latter, then well, you're right, because astral projection is a matter of spirituality and philosophy, a whole different school of thought than science.

(OBEs kinda straddle the line between spirituality and science, because they claim to be occurring in this reality, and thus should be observable, as opposed to astral projection, which takes place on other dream planes, and since there was even statistical significant results in the dream telepathy experiment, to say "lolhellno" to astral projection [as opposed to OBEs, which I personally don't believe in, but do believe in astral projection, which is why I define them separately], or other strange things in our dreams is jumping the gun a bit).



« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 03:51:00 am by Tsyal Maktoyu »


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Offline Yayo

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Re: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2011, 03:37:59 am »
When you say "pseudoscience", are you using it as a term of insult, or simply to define something that doesn't follow the scientific method? Because if it's the former, you just insulted a good amount of people that have posted in this thread (Let's not be iconoclasts, here.), if it's the latter, then well, you're right, because astral projection is a matter of spirituality and philosophy, a whole different school of thought than lucid dreaming. (OBEs kinda straddle the line between spirituality and science)


I agree with you.

While it's fine to have your own opinions, you should express them in such a way that doesn't put down others'.


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Offline Clarke

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Re: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2011, 10:19:30 am »
There is only so much you can say to cusion, "you are wrong."

Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2011, 11:24:52 am »
When you say "pseudoscience", are you using it as a term of insult, or simply to define something that doesn't follow the scientific method? Because if it's the former, you just insulted a good amount of people that have posted in this thread (let's not be iconoclasts, here, if someone holds spiritual beliefs, we should respect them), if it's the latter, then well, you're right, because astral projection is a matter of spirituality and philosophy, a whole different school of thought than science.

(OBEs kinda straddle the line between spirituality and science, because they claim to be occurring in this reality, and thus should be observable, as opposed to astral projection, which takes place on other dream planes, and since there was even statistical significant results in the dream telepathy experiment, to say "lolhellno" to astral projection [as opposed to OBEs, which I personally don't believe in, but do believe in astral projection, which is why I define them separately], or other strange things in our dreams is jumping the gun a bit).
I do not mean insult. Whatever I say I do not mean any hidden connotations.

Pseudoscience = "science" that does not follow the scientific method and/or relies on disproven premises.

You can, however, use the scientific method to prove whether a certain experience is "astral" or not. Since the astral plane *objectively* exists, albeit in a spiritual world, someone in it should not be able to influence the plane at will. Astral projecting into Pandora, for example, is definitely not going to be genuine, since the astral plane (supposing it exists) is definitely older than the movie AVATAR and would not be influenced by it.

Basically with enough evidence anything can be tested with the scientific method. If it is absolutely untestable, the theory will have no followers except skxawngs. In this case AP is testable in a sense, so I am not insulting AP followers as morons or anything close.

As for OBEs, they are kinda disproven, again, I recommend Stephen LaBerge. Most OBEs have small discrepancies with real life that simply do not fit. And by the way I am not simply a third party - I have done OBEs before and seriously tried to prove it was correct. The method I used was with a random number generator running on my computer screen regenerating a number every 30 minutes. The time and the number would be logged to the file every new generation. I would go remember the number and the time in the OBE experience, and after the experience ended I will check out the log to see if the number I remembered at the time I saw corresponded to the time and number in the log. No statistically significant correlation resulted.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 11:42:55 am by Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng »
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Offline Tsyal Maktoyu

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Re: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2011, 10:47:29 pm »
How many times have you run the experiment? You need multiple trials to prove/disprove anything, because there's both possibilities that an OBE is or isn't a dream. I think I'll try that number generator thing. Do you have a link to the program? Even if I don't personally believe in OBEs, I'll give it a shot. One thing I always find peculiar is that induced OBEs always seem to lack the "reality" feeling of natural OBEs, and tbh that's one reason why I think research needs to continue. The verdict is still out, IMO.

Oh, and the astral plane is influenceable (at least, from what I've read about it), it's sort of like the sum spirits of the universe, so theoretically enough collective will would create a Pandora there. There's also the ephemeral plane (or etherial, I forget the exact name), which may be another explanation for OBEs, in which the mind goes to a plane close to reality. Sort of how people are able to see or hear if they are clinically dead. This would explain discrepancies in OBEs, as one would not be IN the real world, but one similar.

And I still think it's unfair to call people who believe in the unprovable to be sxkawngs. That would be insulting the majority of humans who have some sort of faith life. I don't believe in religion, just speaking in defense of those who are, though.

Though, again, I think we may be getting off topic. I'm not sure if the point of this thread is to attempt to prove/disprove astral projection/OBEs, or be a place to discuss them for people that believe in them. I don't want to feel like (and I bet you don't, either) I'm trampling on anyone's spiritual beliefs or anything, spirituality will likely be very important to the tribe, afterall. :)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 11:50:46 pm by Tsyal Maktoyu »


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Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2011, 10:42:37 am »
I am a quite serious Reformed Christian. Paraphrasing Josh McDowell, if there is no evidence to believe in anything, you shouldn't believe it. All religions are testable, SOMEWHAT. For example, Buddhism, which I do not believe in of course, is testable in the sense that it does change the lives of people.

Collective consciousness...hmm...but what about pressing a button in the experience and making everything in the astral plane explode? Would that affect others' experiences?

By the way, that program, about to upload it I am. Use it, you may.
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Offline Clarke

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Re: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2011, 11:05:30 am »
And I still think it's unfair to call people who believe in the unprovable to be sxkawngs. That would be insulting the majority of humans who have some sort of faith life.
If I were far more mean-spriited and cynical than I actually am: ...And? :P

(IMO, although you should not annoy people just because they disagree with you, you're not obligated to give any other peoples' beliefs respect simply because they exist.)

Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2011, 11:07:52 am »
Here is the OBE tester program:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/38454768/OBETester.exe
Appropriately called "unilfmektoyu" ;D

Only works on Windows; you will need .NET Framework 2.0. Most people already have it though (you automatically get it with Vista and Win7, plus XP users get it via Windows Update)

60 second interval recommended.
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Offline Tsyal Maktoyu

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Re: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2011, 01:45:03 pm »
Clarke - There's a time and place for spiritual debates, and I'm not sure if this is the place for it. So yes, outside of the battleground of debates, respect for other's beliefs (within reason, of course, and IMO OBEs and AP are within reason) is necessary. Otherwise it's iconoclasm.

Thanks for the program, UtS. Will try it when I get home on Saturday. :)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 01:47:14 pm by Tsyal Maktoyu »


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Offline 'Itan Atxur

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Re: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2011, 05:05:08 am »
I'm thinking of moving this topic to another more suitable part of the forum. I just can't think of a reason to keep it in the tribe section. Does anybody else have a reason it should stay here?

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Offline Tsyal Maktoyu

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Re: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2011, 09:50:44 am »
Maybe keep the OP and some of the replies here for those in the tribe who wish to be "shamans" or spiritual leaders. I know a few stepped up. Other, more skepticism-related posts/debating posts maybe move to another thread?


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"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”. - Denis Diderot

Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2011, 09:56:16 am »
I think that moving to General Discussion would be much better. Just as I have said, unless you plan on doing a uniltaron ritual, this has nothing to do with the tribe, and people posting here mostly don't come from the tribe anyway.
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Offline hemmond

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Re: Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds
« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2011, 03:47:03 pm »
Well... At least, this shows us next thing to discuss... :) Some customs, rituals and beliefs... Many will be settled on site, but if we want some complex, or complicated things, it might need more research...
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