Author Topic: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.  (Read 11289 times)

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Offline Rolyu

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Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« on: February 16, 2010, 06:51:34 pm »
Now, I'm expecting to get smited for this by someone, but please don't take offense to this next topic.  You are all very excited about living as a tribe, and you have a lot of good ideas.  I just get the feeling there are going to be some people who don't know exactly what they're getting into.  For that reason, I am going to play the devil's advocate to this tribe idea.  Not to make you feel bad, or discourage you, but to make you think.  I want you guys to know all of the reasons why humans live the way we do in the first place.  You will be living a beautiful lifestyle as a tribe, but a hard one.  So think about these things as you make your preparations.

My experience:
     I grew up in a variety of different situations, and frankly, have had the best of both worlds.  I lived mostly with my Mother, out in the middle of nowhere, and learned about hard work, hunting, growing things, farming, respect for nature and how to be self-sufficient.  I spent a lot of time with my Dad, however, who has lived in various areas of Pugetropolis (the giant city of King County.)  Here I learned about having street smarts, how to deal with large amounts of people, and all of the wonder and joy of the city.
    After Graduation, I moved in with my Dad, and now live in this city area.  It's a huge change in lifestyle to be sure.  I love being here, but I'm glad I have the experience I do from a harder way of life.

Remember the line from Avatar : "With Neytiri, it's learn fast or die."  That is the way of a hunter/gatherer society.  Remember that.

All of the un-romantic inconveniences of living off the land, tribal style.
- You will be dirty all the time.  The dirt will be in your nose, your hair, on your face, and so deep into your fingernails that they may bleed when you take your weekly hot bath.  After a wash, you will be clean for about 30 minutes.  Then you must get back to whatever work you do, and you will very quickly become dirty again.  Not to mention, you and everyone around you will smell like BO almost all the time.  You may or may not get used to it, and some people smell worse than others.
-Speaking of bathing, you will need to make your own soaps.  Unless you have access to special oils, (coconut, palm, almond) these soaps will be harsh.  You will have to use these to wash your hair. 
- If you have a pre-existing skin condition, it will get worse.  Things like eczema, psoriasis, or acne will get worse, and you will have fewer options for treating them.
- Unless you plan on buying toilet paper, pooing is going to be awkward.
-Speaking of poo, no toilets means you are going to have to find alternate ways of dealing with waste that will prevent the spread of disease.
- You get ringworm from touching animals.  You can't wash off ringworm.  You need fungicide.
-Speaking of fungus, peeing on your feet is the best way to protect against athlete's food while you are in a dirty, damp environment.
- If you live in a tropical area, diseases like Dengu, and Malaria, and all a manner of frightening and strange parasites are much more common.
-If you live in a tropical area, it is more like Pandora (in the manner that almost every living thing you come in contact with wants to make your life miserable.)  There are less edible plants, and more poisonous (and bigger) spiders, insects, and snakes.  Don't forget the alligators.
- Speaking of the tropics, go google "Jungle Rot."  I'm not talking about the band.
- You will wake up before the sun rises and go to bed after it gets dark.  You will work, and work hard.  Harder than you've ever worked in your life.  Your muscles will first be sore, then stiff.  As your muscles grow, they will become tight.  You will have little time for special workouts and stretching.  When you pull a muscle in your back, you will not be able to visit a chiropractor.  When it hurts, you will not be able to sit in a comfy chair with a tylenol and an ice-back.  You will instead try to put it out of your mind as you work through the injury.  Then, at night, you will lay on a surface that is harder and lumpier than even an antique mattress.  (Unless you have feathers or a straw tick.  Then you have fleas to deal with.)  Oh yeah, did I mention the fleas?
-You will get bored and depressed because all you do all day is work, just so you can eat dinner.
-Speaking of which.  Your food will be limited.  You cannot just eat whenever you feel the urge.  You will be ravenous by the time you get dinner.  Then, you will not eat until you're stuffed.  You will only eat enough to sustain yourself.  There will be no leftovers and there may not be enough for everyone to be satisfied.  Your meals will be very monotonous in taste.  Your herbs and spices are limited.  Limited salt, no pepper, no curry, no nutmeg, no tumeric, no chili powder or cumin, no sugar, no ketchup, no mustard, no mayo. NO PEANUT BUTTER! (omg!  Trust me, life without peanut butter is hell.) No vanilla or chocolate.  No coffee. You will often grow tired of what you're eating, and crave something else.  You won't get that something else to eat, and trust me, you will feel agitated and upset.  Nothing wears down your strength and optimism like hunger.

-About this permanent tribe business... how permanent is permanent? Do you mean to have children?  If you do, you will have your children taken away from you and you will be thrown in jail for child abuse.

-what about Sex?  What if two members of the tribe get really horny, and they have sex.  What if one get's pregnant?  Then what?

-about Hunting: It feels bad to kill things.  Even when you know you're going to eat it.  I shot a squirrel once and almost threw up.  Can you kill an animal?  Really?  Once you have that fish in your hand, and it's gasping, and staring at you as you get ready to beat it on the head with a rock, can you really kill the thing?  If your tribe is short on food, and you need to poach an animal to survive, you will risk fines or jail time.  Can you deal with that?

-about raising animals: It's way harder and way less rewarding than you may think.  Not only is it sad to raise an animal from birth, only to butcher it and eat it, but without things like tractors, electric fences, barns, vet care, and store-bought feed and supplements, raising livestock is back-breaking work.  In a tribal situation, the person/people responsible for tending such animals will have no time for anything else in their lives, otherwise the animals will suffer, die, get lost, get eaten, get sick, get into the garden and destroy it, get into someone's living space and destroy it, or eat something that either poisons it or makes the milk taste bad.  Chickens will attract predators such as wolves, coyotes, cougars, bobcats, other wild cats, foxes, feral dogs, bears, skunks, badgers, weasles, snakes, vultures, eagles, owls, and.... I feel like I'm missing some...

Whew, I'm tired.  I'll post more when I think of more.

Now, these are the things that would keep me from going to live in a tribal society like you planned.

What I would like to see in this discussion is not people defending their ideas, plans, or hopes about this project.  I want to see people accepting that these things are worth considering, and I want to see people come up with prevention/solutions.  (I will also contribute to the prevention/solution part, cause I've dealt with these things in the past.) 

Remember, be smart, be strong, be safe, and survive.  :)

Offline Txon Taronyu

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2010, 06:58:11 pm »
This does raise good points

I know I have thought of many of these things and also dealt with them before

Actually you can get a wide veriety off food and lots of it if you know how.

We could have compostible outhoses (clean, not smelly if kept right)

And in a group you would catch a few deer and gather some food and then you would rest most of the day and do some of the other work like tanning hides and stuff but its hard work some times and others its a lot of free time. I know.
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Offline Rolyu

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2010, 07:14:49 pm »
:) Sounds like you have some experience as well.  That's good!

And I agree about the wide variety of nutritious foods, but many of those foods are very bland, bitter, or have simple tastes.  Of course, you can grow things like basil, oregano, thyme, rosemary, dill, sage, parsley and cilantro, but it can sometimes be hard to create a variety of tastes.  It's like, even with all those herbs, if you ate venison and trout predominately for a year, you will often find yourself wishing for some bacon, a nice hamburger, or even just some friend chicken.  (Though fried grouse is soooo much tastier, lucky you!)

 

Offline 'Itan Atxur

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2010, 07:18:26 pm »
This is further proof that we won't be able to completely abandon tech.

Also, those of us who are still hear after reading that post are most certainly worthy of the "committed" list!

Very good points, all of which need to be addressed before we do anything.

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Offline Rolyu

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2010, 07:45:38 pm »
Reading the link that Txon Taronyu posted makes me think twice about the depressed part I posted.  Maybe if you are forced to live that way against your will it is depressing, but the man in the article sounded happy about it because it was his choice.

Food for thought.

Offline 'Itan Atxur

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2010, 08:12:36 pm »
Yeah, I disagreed with a few of your points but many of them are points we've neglected to bring up and are very important. Irayo!!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 01:09:32 pm by Uriuujìn »

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Offline Rolyu

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2010, 08:23:17 pm »
^^ People are bound to disagree.  I am only working off of my experience, which is no means expert!

I'm glad I can bring up useful things somebody hasn't thought of yet.

And I am really curious about the "permanence" of the permanent tribe and the aspects of sex.  How permanent is the permanent tribe?  Will members be sexually active?  What happens when someone gets pregnant?

Offline 'Itan Atxur

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2010, 09:05:40 pm »
That hasn't been discussed yet unfortunately. Obviously, we still need to get all the basics worked out. But in some cases we seem to have skipped over the challenging questions and jumped straight to the easy and fun ones.

This topic has been something of a reality check for me. While I'm still committed to the tribe, I feel we need to look at things a bit more objectively than we have. We're rather disorganized at the moment and that's the easiest way to unintentionally ignore important topics like you've brought up.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 09:09:21 pm by 'Itan Atxur »

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Offline Txontaw

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2010, 09:10:53 pm »
Yes, like I've said many times, we're taking this very slowly, and we're putting the projected date a looong time from now. This will allow us to work out all the kinks in our idea.

What we have now is a very, very basic idea. There is a lot that needs to be done, and we don't want to have to rush to try and figure it out.
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Offline Letxuma Swizaw

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2010, 10:16:32 pm »
 There are some things that people are just not cut out for. I on the other hand am fine with all of these inconveniences, even though most of them will only be problems for the first few months of tribe life. Some people are distraught at the thought of even harming an animal but trust me when i say that when you are hunting for survival the only thing you're going to feel is recoil. Some will still cling on to this idea that they are doing wrong by harming an animal that the earth has provided for us. Those are people who will not make it. Some will crumble under the harsh work of the constructing and settling period. Those are people who will not make it. Some will refuse to do what they must to live as naturally as possible. Those are people who will not make it. Some will crumble at the first sign of illness refusing to think clearly about their situation. Those are people who will not make it. But there will be a select few who through clear minds and dedication will rise above their fellow humans and be able to say that they have lived as they should have.

 This world is a world full of dangers; dangers I am willing to face and dangers that i would say at least a few people would face, so that we can rise above the fat cats of modern society and strike a blow to the tyranny that is the neigh-sayers, the industry, and all who oppose rightful living as nature intended.

 That's just my two cents. I appreciate your post I really do but if you really want to try to tear someone down try it somewhere else because i am not having it. If you can't handle it then you just aren't ready yet to be part of this community. You are more than welcome to visit us, but i will not have anyone come and attempt to destroy my hopes and the hopes of others based on their 19 years of "experience" and "hard life".

Now I've had enough, I'm getting too mean, and I'm going to go kill some people in MW2 to get my mind off of this. Kame ngati krr a Kìyamänge ngati.

EDIT:

I'm sorry. :'( I've just been getting really worked up lately all these new people coming in and trying to change us from the ground up is starting to worry me. I won't delete the mean things i've said as i like to be as honest to my word as possible. I just hope some one will see them in a better light and see the more positive statements in there (trust me they are abundant)

Feel free to destroy me as necessary Rolyu.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 10:28:06 pm by Letxuma Swizaw »
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Offline 'Itan Atxur

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2010, 11:00:07 pm »
That's just my two cents. I appreciate your post I really do but if you really want to try to tear someone down try it somewhere else because i am not having it. If you can't handle it then you just aren't ready yet to be part of this community. You are more than welcome to visit us, but i will not have anyone come and attempt to destroy my hopes and the hopes of others based on their 19 years of "experience" and "hard life".

Woah! Time out here! I think you're digging WAY too far into this topic! Rolyu has already participated in many of our discussion and the sole purpose of this topic is to make absolute SURE that we know what we're up against! And the truth is, we don't know!

Many of the points made in this topic are valid points that MUST be discussed! We can't simply sweep them under the table and just say "we'll tough it out!" or "we'll figure it out when it comes up!". These are all things we need to address or we're just ignorant children playing around with a dream!

Now, I intend to make this tribe my life and to make it who I am. But as we all know, this isn't something we can simply do just because we decided to! We need to understand the consequences of our choice, because there will be many (sure that comes as a huge surprise). We NEED to hear these things! Rolyu didn't state them in a negative or hateful way but in an informative and intelligent way. Rolyu clearly want's to make sure that we do know what we're getting into and that we're going to prepare ourselves properly. We really needed somebody to play devils advocate.

Nobody is trying to destroy anybodies dreams.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 02:44:44 pm by 'Itan Atxur »

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Offline Rolyu

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2010, 11:13:04 pm »
Wow.  Thank you so much, 'Itan.  I'm glad you see I'm not trying to attack anyone here.  I'll leave off the post I was working on and for the most part forget what Letxuma wrote.  You basically said what I was going to.

Now, let's get back to the down to Earth problem solving discussion.  We should be seeing what people have to say about specific issues. 


@Letxuma :My main motivation for bringing these points up is a combination of my concern for the Tribe's welfare, and my concern for the reputation of Learnnavi.org.
If you guys got in legal trouble, or something went wrong and someone died, it would destroy the reputation of this whole forum, and everyone on it.  The legal implications and possible lawsuits are frightening.

So yeah.  Since I am not super excited about turning to tribal living, I just want to be that voice that makes you all think twice about it, and most importantly, think about the small things, and come up with specific answers to all the questions you have all been asking.

Offline Letxuma Swizaw

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2010, 11:17:25 pm »
i was trying to absolve that with my edit i'm really sorry. oeru txoa livu. :'( it's just ive been really stressed out and i tend to take it out on the first person that seems like a threat no matter their true intentions. i knew you weren't threatening i just had a selfish attitude going into that post but please do not let the negatives of that bring down the positives.
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Offline 'Itan Atxur

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2010, 11:17:57 pm »
Sometimes it just takes another voice or opinion to open up a whole different line of thinking, and I think we needed that.

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Offline Rolyu

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2010, 11:50:36 pm »
Don't worry.  I just looked at your profile and it makes much more sense.  You sounded like a crazy old man a little bit, but you are really just a spunky guy with a little too much steam.  lol.  I also just realized that the cutie with the glasses on the picture thread is you.

 ::)

Offline 'Itan Atxur

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2010, 11:53:55 pm »
Gotta say, that is a pretty bad ass pic. Love the glasses!!

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Offline Letxuma Swizaw

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2010, 12:07:35 am »
Irayo for seeing past my ignorance.
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Offline bagget00

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2010, 01:57:08 am »
I say that if we are daunted by this, that is reasonable but it does cast a clearer picture of wh=at we are going to deal with. Also, if someone looks at this and says I still want to go anyways, then he/she is just about as commited as you can be. The hardest part of this whole process will be the wait of a few years to get started and get fit and be ready. Time is the most wearing factor on our confidence that we can do this. Don't lose hope from this thread, it's a very much needed reminder.
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Offline Ikranä mokri

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2010, 05:28:43 am »
i totally agree with you. i know know from persoanl experience how nice it is to live rough for a while.

you bring up some very good points and nearer teh time when we have a location im sure we will all have to research all about the local flora and fauna.

most of your points are perfectly true but they all have a solution however complicated

taking up your first point people wil get used to the dirt hell i like being dirty theyll complaiun to start with but as soon as they actually work they wont give a s*** about how look or smell cause theyll be nursing bruises and all sorts of pain





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Offline Rolyu

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2010, 11:14:03 am »
So true, that.

But after moving to the city last summer, I can keep my fingernails and fingertips clean and I put lotion on them, so my cuticles are finally getting back to a healthy state.  They don't bleed and crack anymore.  It's soooooooo nice.  I love it.  I love not smelling like manure, and I love that when I go take a shower I'm not washing grit out of my hair and nose.

hahaha I'm such a girl.

 

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