Author Topic: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.  (Read 12700 times)

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Offline Fnua Atxkxe

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #160 on: February 25, 2010, 07:07:44 pm »
Well I knew they existed, the idea's and some of the techniques they practice, but it would be interesting to look into specific problems they encountered, how they overcame them, stuff they tried which didn't work etc.
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Offline Hì'irawr

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #161 on: February 26, 2010, 04:38:02 am »
        Upon reading this entire post in the last 40 minutes many thoughts and ideas have gone through my head to both help you out and maybe even make you aware of some more problems with this plan as well as solutions to current problems. Though, as I was reading I also noted how this topic has shifted into two different tracks, the I want to live tribally group, and the I want to live in an eco-village with a tight nit society group. I will address the Eco-village group first

@ecoVillage Peoples:

     Some of the problems you have already discussed are: Money, sustainability, resources.

My advice to you, The government loves people being eco friendly and will do almost anything to give people the impression that they care about the environment and where being green is involved they are likely to be of assistance. It is very possible that if you contacted the right people you would be able to get assistance financially from the government in some way or another. This could possibly lead to really cheap land, assistance in setting up the society, tax breaks, and other cool benefits. As far as sustainability goes, micro agriculture is the best route, learning everything there is to know about gardens, horticulture, crop cycles, crop rotation, nutritional benefits of different foods that can be grown in area of settlement, etc. The amount of resources available depends hugely on how big the society is (issue already addressed), Region in which you settle (is the land fertile, forested?), and lastly what resources you "as a group" consider necessary. I think that in an ideal region and setting, with ideal people and good attitudes, this sort of society is very plausible. If it didn't go as planned though you would end up with a society much like the "Dharma" people on Lost, living their oppressed, completely controlled, and clueless lives. The government assistance was the main point of this, Also I suggest having more than just a large group of non college graduates congregate in the wild... :D By this I mean it would greatly help to have some scientist, especially ones with PhDs in sciences about growing things such as Ag. or Horticulture. This would greatly increase your odds of self sustainability, and the odds that this project could become a way of life. Also I think possessions and technology should be avoided as much as possible if you want to get as close to the tribal feel. Meaning no communication with anyone from the outside world, No computers or tvs to entertain yourselves. While reading through this discussion I read mention of computers being integrated into these societies, but can tell you right now that this would create way to many problems to explain in one posting. If you want to be tribal there should be nothing like computers anywhere near your eco-village. I will talk about this more in the tribal part of this.

@Tribal Group peoples:

       I have many things to say about this, and dont grill me because you dont agree, but these are things to consider...

First off: Recently I completed a course on Anthropology through college, it was by far one of the most challenging courses I have ever attempted, but was also one of the most rewarding. I learned so much about cultures and how they developed, what makes them unique, how they sustain themselves. I also learned how living in a tribal setting can either be possible or impossible. I will first give you some examples. The type of society you as a group are trying to create is obviously dubbed a, Hunter/gatherer society. On the earth to this day, there are only 2 hunter/gatherer tribe remaining, there used to be three a few years ago, but Ill get to that. Of the two remaining, one group is called the Pila Nguru or Spinafex people and the other is the Sentinalese. Between these two tribes Nothing specific is known about the Sentinalese, because they have completely isolated themselves from modern society and have been living on their island for the past 3000 or so years. The Pila Nguru live in the deserts of Australia, which imo is some of the harshest bush you could possibly try to sustain a hunter gather society. The tribe that was whipped out was known as the Guarani, Generally that is a term used to describe any native people to the Amazonian River Basin, but was more specific to a certain group of people who spoke the "Guarani" language. Now, the Guarani are a prime example of how you could make your tribal society work, in fact its almost ridiculous how similar there way of life is to the Na'vi. The only major difference is size and color. They are an example of a hunter gather society that was completely in balance with nature. If you would like I can send you a PM with a paper I had to write about them, but to keep things short and sweet. Learn as much about this group of people if you want to succeed, they knew what they were doing and sustained there way of life until huge plantation owners clear cut their rain-forests and forced them into indentured servitude. Google it if you want, but I seriously have a paper that can save you a lot of searching.... Another thing, These cultures all share a few things in common that will for sure make or break your plans to live as they have for the past millenia.(this kinda excludes the sentinalese) I will just make a list of these things to keep it short: They have extremely strong religious and spiritual connections with nature, This creates a unity between them, much like Eywa, They are very Pantheistic people, They in no way are selfish, greedy, or prideful, they live/d extremely difficult lives with absolutely no time for leisure. These are just a few things I wanted to point out, because they say that the best way to learn from mistakes is by reading into our history, but to be successful you can also read into cultures that have made this work, and It might actually work for you. If your not willing to be a Peagan and have no sense of unity with nature and the people around you then this is not going to workout as a life-term plan for you.

Problems You will encounter:
The stuff that's been discussed plenty, Land, location, money, permits.
Human nature, we have all been raised and integrated into a heavily technological society from birth, we have not only been raised to rely on these technologies, but to not be content without them (meaning boredom without the internet). If you want to live tribally there should be absolutely no room for any form of technology, no computers, phones, propane stoves, lighters, matches, TP, with the exception of vaccines (cause these diseases are fatal regardless of how awesome your immune system is, unless your ancestors are survivors of the black plague). But you get the idea no technology whatsoever! I have personally hunted with both bow and rifle, and neither of these hunting techniques were pain free or easy, I also have been homeless, that meant no monies for a nice dry place to stay or any way to cook my food. You think tribal life will be a breeze ??? Imagine what it is like to be cold hungry and not have a pot or pan to cook your food in or a fire of stove to cook it on. I will tell you right now that you are going to be so homesick and miss technology such as refrigerators, microwaves, or heaters, and homely comforts such as blankets, Beds, electricity.  Imagine what it will be like to actually expend almost all of your days energy searching for different kinds of food, just so you can wake up the next day to do it again, I mean there is the possibility of preserving certain foods to create a stockpile or save up for winter , but even the majority of that spoils with no refrigeration, and this is especially true if your in a 4 season climate zone, where it gets cold enough for everything to stop growing but is warm enough that it doesnt snow. Survival is tough and I can guarantee beyond the shadow of a doubt that you will get tired of it eventually and wish you had a nice warm bed canned soup, clothes, and some pot roast (not saying that you will give up at this point). If I havnt made myself clear as how difficult this would be, Imagine. You are in the middle of absolute no where it is not possible to walk to any form of civilization for over 1000 miles, the only possessions you have are the clothes on your back and the shoes on your feet, do you think you would be able to survive all alone with only your clothes? If you were living it tribal there would be no metal items, no manufactured clothes, no manufactured anything for that matter, you have to create everything by yourself with your own two hands. If you still think you could do this all by yourself then all the power to you, or if your thinking well it would be a group not just me, then also take into consideration that it is harder to feed two mouths than one and if you cant do the survival thing by your lonesome then your only a liability to your group. I dont mean to sound to harsh about this, but I kinda get fed up when city and pampered people believe it would be so easy to survive in the wild with absolutely nothing, You have to think on the broad scope of things, there are no care packages, there are no manufactured items, You have to make your own clothes, etc. Also, I would like to point out that if you are trying to live in the woods for the rest of your life, but actually plan on bringing any sort of metal item or manufactured item with you, you are kinda going against the point of roughing it or surviving like the Na'vi do. It is also very sensible, as someone who's name I dont remember said, weening yourself from modern technology and comforts is the best way to go. If you just give camping supplies the cold shoulder you are going to be the most unhappy "camper" in the world. I recommend camping for a month with nothing more than 1 pair of clothes a lightweight sleeping bag, flint and tinder, and a knife, machete, or hatchet and if you can handle that really well then I would say you are tough enough for this project. Its already been said in this thread, the reason why people created technology was so that life was just a little bit easier, and so forth, because life in the dark ages sucked terribly. Just some food for thought, my main point if I wasn't clear, which it is not sometimes, is that if "you" can not survive in the wild by yourself with no supplies then this tribal lifestyle will not work for you, period.

Besides that people in general have all that pride to swallow, and selfishness to turn into selflessness, and if you were to make this into a permanent way of life you literally would have to go into this situation extremely well versed in survival skills and, have an "empty-cup" so that you can develop a flawless and perfect culture.

Anywhoos, Im tired beyond my wits right now so Im going to stop for tonight, hopefully that helps a little bit more, if you have a question about something I said then ask, if you disagree with me then Im happy to talk about it, and if you think you are really this tough then I say you are cut out to try for tribe life or ecovillage life... either way hope your plan works out, like I said there has been cultures to do it in the past so dont act like Im completely one sided on this ordeal.

Good luck
(insert navi thingy that I cant recall right now cause im tired :/  )

I hope this makes sense tomorrow when I read it.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 04:54:25 am by Hì'irawr »

Offline Nanaki

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #162 on: February 26, 2010, 07:26:37 am »
Kaltxì ma Hì'irawr,

Thank you for your post very interesting! Some of us, I hope, know that this life will be very difficult to live (for all the points you raised)

quote[If you want to live tribally there should be absolutely no room for any form of technology, no computers, phones, propane stoves, lighters, matches, TP, with the exception of vaccines]quote

I approve :)
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Offline Letxuma Swizaw

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #163 on: February 26, 2010, 10:47:31 am »
Thank you god for sending me someone who can sum up my eco-tribe/technology frustrations in an informative factual post. ;D
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Offline Rolyu

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #164 on: February 26, 2010, 10:54:30 am »
One special thing you forgot to mention about the Sentinalese (did I spell it right? *too lazy to check*) is that they maintain their hunter-gatherer society through Extreme isolation.  Their numbers, their way of life, their customs, and their ceremonies are an unknown to us, because no one can get close enough to the island to find out.  I find it a pride and joy to humanity that we haven't forced our way in there to "civilize" them.  The local government are just letting them do what they do.  The last time I heard of any attempt at interference, it was because a couple of fishermen got too close to the island.  They were killed with (throwing spears I think?)
When a team went in to try and recover the bodies, they were confronted with a hail of arrows and spears.  They gave up and left.


I like the point you brought up about people's personalities.  We are a very insubordinate species, with the Generation Y of Western culture ( anyone born between the mid 1980's and 2000) Being the most insubordinate of all.  Again, the Na'vi were a "big man" society, with a spiritual matriarch.  These role, as it showed in the movie, can be passed down by Birthright (Neytiri becomes the next Tsahik) or merit. (Jake becomes the new Oloekytan. <-- did I spell that right?)  The fascinating part is that the Omaticaya listen to their leaders and follow them.  They are ok with being told what to do.  
As people, it will be extremely hard (i think) for you to subjugate your will to the will of another.  
However, that's what it takes to make a small society work.  

I think.  More or less.

Good morning. :)

Offline Hì'irawr

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #165 on: February 26, 2010, 02:20:20 pm »
Yah I was going to add a little bit more about the Sentinalese this morning, And I can still upload that Guarani document if people would like me too!

And like I said before it is highly important to be able to "subjugate" yourself to others in a big man society, the leaders word is as good as law! A leader in this form of society has to prove themselves to be a worthy lead, one who will not take advantage of their power, no ruling by tyranny. And if this idea became long term, it would have to be decided if the next leader would be a blood relative to the previous. One of the biggest reasons why the Na'vi and Guarani cultures worked so well is that, the Guarani were isolated from other human contact, and shared a very strong religious belief with one another that gave them a very deep respect for nature and what they could take from it, this non greedy respect is what made their culture sustainable, The Na'vi, share something that we as humans, no matter what, can not share. The Na'vi believe that Eywa is their true leader, this belief is reinforced by the fact that they can actually connect to their god through "Tsahaylu" <--probably spelled wrong). What I'm saying is that the Na'vi actually connect with their god so their religious beliefs are not so much based on faith but on their mental connection with Eywa as well as each other. This connectedness is what helps them to see eye to eye. That is why giving up some of your human instincts and behaviors would be necessary for this project to work. There is no room to second guess your leader, but your leader should not turn out to be a dictator who rules through fear, such as Kim Jong (Korea's crazy leader). They also share a deep respect with nature due to their connectedness, which helps them to be a sustainable culture!

Anyways, Ill touch base on some more stuff later, but I got to get ready to conquer the day!
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 02:57:11 pm by Uriuujìn »

Offline The old Uriuujìn

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #166 on: February 26, 2010, 02:58:39 pm »
Yah I was going to add a little bit more about the Sentinalese this morning, And I can still upload that Guarani document if people would like me too!

And like I said before it is highly important to be able to "subjugate" yourself to others in a big man society, the leaders word is as good as law! A leader in this form of society has to prove themselves to be a worthy lead, one who will not take advantage of their power, no ruling by tyranny. And if this idea became long term, it would have to be decided if the next leader would be a blood relative to the previous. One of the biggest reasons why the Na'vi and Guarani cultures worked so well is that, the Guarani were isolated from other human contact, and shared a very strong religious belief with one another that gave them a very deep respect for nature and what they could take from it, this non greedy respect is what made their culture sustainable, The Na'vi, share something that we as humans, no matter what, can not share. The Na'vi believe that Eywa is their true leader, this belief is reinforced by the fact that they can actually connect to their god through "Tsahaylu" <--probably spelled wrong). What I'm saying is that the Na'vi actually connect with their god so their religious beliefs are not so much based on faith but on their mental connection with Eywa as well as each other. This connectedness is what helps them to see eye to eye. That is why giving up some of your human instincts and behaviors would be necessary for this project to work. There is no room to second guess your leader, but your leader should not turn out to be a dictator who rules through fear, such as Kim Jong (Korea's crazy leader). They also share a deep respect with nature due to their connectedness, which helps them to be a sustainable culture!

Anyways, Ill touch base on some more stuff later, but I got to get ready to conquer the day!

I really like this idea! One Karma point for you!

However, I still think that while we need a single leader, a Council should also be implemented- to check his power, if the need be, as well as to serve as a Judicial branch ^_^

Gaia ayngahu

-Uriuujìn

Offline Hì'irawr

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #167 on: February 26, 2010, 03:39:18 pm »
Thats hilarious I was just about to post something to that effect, but you beat me to it! Yes a council would be completely necessary to check the power of the leader! I think if I'm not getting my facts twisted that historically a council of 7 members including the leader has always been the most effective! I believe that The united states Judicial branch has 9 supreme court justices, One being the chief justice and then 8 underlings!

Im actually going to create a separate post because I just thought of something very important to bring up.

*edit* The document has been posted, on this thread of the forum, hopefully its information is thought of as useful, because unless we as a group decide adamantly on cultural dynamics before a "constitution" or any other form of mandate is drafted, this project will epically fail. Lets keep discussion the possibilities of an eco village vs. completely tribal vs. a hybrid of the two, but lets start discussion the things I broke down in my post in depth. Some things like location are being taken care of in other posts so dont worry about that, but things like sociopolitical organization, religion, cultural personality can be discussed there. And if you think everything from each and every one of those topics has already been discussed, then lets consolidate it so that people can find all that valuable information in one place instead of scattered through out the archives of the forum.*/edit*
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 05:46:59 pm by Hì'irawr »

Offline ShadowedSin

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #168 on: March 01, 2010, 01:50:51 pm »
Ah, as decided to chime in a bit.

As a cultural anthropology major I want to add a bit.

Some people seem to think that tribal life is purely neolithic. It's not, Tribes are different and can be quite self sufficient. I think what could possibly be the best way of living would be the eco-village, which can still be a Tribe. Tribe is the organization itself and the people, not the actual way of living.

I suggest researching groups like the Celts. Though European they had an Egalitarian life, and lived in general harmony with the land. In fact if you want a communal setting I would DEFINITELY research them! Their laws were pretty advanced too and were very fairy considering the rest of Europe.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 04:45:25 pm by Uriuujìn »
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Offline AterFeles

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #169 on: March 02, 2010, 07:19:14 pm »
As a note about the hunting/poaching issue, one thing that you can do to get around this is to set up a private game reserve. I'm not sure on all the requirements and laws surrounding these but I do know that you can hunt any game on them regardless of the hunting season.

Sorry if I'm knocking you off topic...
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 09:40:23 pm by AterFeles »

Offline ShadowedSin

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #170 on: March 02, 2010, 09:40:46 pm »
Well for the worry about poaching, create a reserve and then be care to monitor your herds.
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Offline Tonbogiri

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #171 on: March 04, 2010, 03:32:30 pm »
As an anthropologist, I have frequently encountered those who have an over-romanticised view on tribal life.

I am very glad that this major issue has been addressed. I have been hearing for a while about so called "Pandora Syndrome", where people have become depressed and disillusioned after seeing Avatar (I myself have been accused). Anyone entering into this tribe needs to be aware of all the drawbacks. I do believe, however, that while we have no Tsahaylus to speak of, if we work together we can truly create a symbiotic existence with nature to rival even the Na'Vi themselves.

To all those running the show, do not give up.

(I'd better stop now, before I launch into a "Jake Sully Style" speech... ;))

Eywa Ngahu,
Tonbogiri


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Offline Rain

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #172 on: March 04, 2010, 03:34:50 pm »
Tonbogiri, we need anthropologists like yourself on this forum, and I for one and extremely pleased that you have decided to join us!
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Offline Tonbogiri

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #173 on: March 04, 2010, 03:38:43 pm »
Irayo ma Rain!

While I am still a novice Na'Vi speaker, I hope to contribute as much as possible to this wonderful dream of ours.
It's great to see that our brothers and sisters here at this forum are so supportive.


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Offline Ikranä mokri

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #174 on: March 04, 2010, 03:40:22 pm »
well im sure a few people do have romantic views on it, but some time spent bumming it totally has taught me its hard, even in the Uk near society.

we should all (the people who want to tribe it) go on a week, 2 weeks camping trip, but taking no food or water just a knife, bow(rifle if you really want) and seeing if you can survive and wether you like it

EDIT we do have to get along otherwise this whole idea would fail before it began
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 03:42:02 pm by Twonyu Ikranä »





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Offline nik1

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #175 on: March 04, 2010, 05:25:49 pm »
If anyone is looking for a good read on survival check out the SAS survival handbook by John Wiseman, he addresses how to survive in any weather, and part of the world. 

The SAS is like the navy seals of britain and john wiseman was their chief instructor, they get dropped into some of the most harsh environments and for that reason have to be well trained in survival.

there is also a version called survival guide which is like a pocket sized version so make sure you get the right one

Offline abi

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #176 on: March 04, 2010, 07:45:02 pm »
Well for the worry about poaching, create a reserve and then be care to monitor your herds.

That requires a lot of land, and a lot of animals. For every 1 human there would probably need to be at least 20+ animals. That type of money doesn't come easy.

Offline Tutean-tìhawnu

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #177 on: March 05, 2010, 02:18:23 pm »
The SAS is like the navy seals of britain

Technically that would be the SBS (Special Boat Service), The SAS (Special Air Service) are more "Generic/paratrooper spec-ops".
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Offline nik1

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #178 on: March 05, 2010, 03:36:28 pm »
compartivly for the americans the closest thing we have to the sas are the navy seals. which would be kind of a mix between the green berets and the navy seals but at any rate the point was the sas survival book, one of the best survival guides out there
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 03:57:14 pm by nikopoole »

Offline Letxuma Swizaw

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #179 on: March 05, 2010, 03:40:32 pm »
well im sure a few people do have romantic views on it, but some time spent bumming it totally has taught me its hard, even in the Uk near society.

we should all (the people who want to tribe it) go on a week, 2 weeks camping trip, but taking no food or water just a knife, bow(rifle if you really want) and seeing if you can survive and wether you like it

EDIT we do have to get along otherwise this whole idea would fail before it began

this thread here
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