Author Topic: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.  (Read 12707 times)

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Offline Fnua Atxkxe

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #200 on: March 07, 2010, 07:46:03 am »
In Scotland, we just say that people like me are, a bit of a character. Is why so few mental institutions here. You have to go that little bit further here to be deemed insane ;D
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Offline sezawte

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #201 on: March 07, 2010, 08:43:38 am »
Everybody I know calls me crazy ;D but sanity's just what you make of it... ;) who said it was a good thing anyway
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Offline Fnua Atxkxe

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #202 on: March 07, 2010, 08:55:03 am »
Nobody here :D
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Offline Swokéyan

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #203 on: March 08, 2010, 10:15:16 am »
I have to admit, most of those things on the list look really impossible to me, but i'll get over it :P
Now one thing, i really want to come with you guys, im really in for living like this (sounds crazy, but its a big change from the life i have now with school and work and such, and change is good)
But how long will we stay there for like.. lets say, the first time? A year, a few weeks, or a month?
And will we do any freaky but awesome stuff like rituals or ceremonies, or will we literally work all day long?
About the animal hunting, i dont eat meat, im not proffesional at archery or anything, does everyone has to hunt, and what about the people with other jobs, what will they do?
I dont want to sound like a whiner but i just want to be sure of everything :P
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Offline Letxuma Swizaw

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #204 on: March 08, 2010, 10:19:30 am »
I'm sorry to say that depending on our location protein alternatives may be few and far between so you might have to give up your vegetarianism. If you are okay with eating fish that might work. Hunting is a very physically and sometimes emotionally taxing job so i would not expect everyone to want to participate, especially in the skinning and field dressing process.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 10:32:15 am by Letxuma Swizaw »
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Offline Ikranä mokri

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #205 on: March 08, 2010, 10:23:45 am »
Quote
But how long will we stay there for like.. lets say, the first time? A year, a few weeks, or a month?
forever and ever (i hope)

Quote
And will we do any freaky but awesome stuff like rituals or ceremonies, or will we literally work all day long?
i was gonna make a post about this and i still might but i think there ought to be a few just for lols or even other reasons, and yes u will work all day long, if u have free time your not pulling your weight.

Quote
About the animal hunting, i dont eat meat, im not proffesional at archery or anything, does everyone has to hunt, and what about the people with other jobs, what will they do?
well archery can be practised, I know im getting allot more into it that i used to be, i dont think eveyone has to hunt and there will be loads of other jobs





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Offline Swokéyan

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #206 on: March 08, 2010, 10:30:16 am »
I agree with your point Letxuma Swizaw, im not sure but i might consider it if there's no other option i guess.

And Twonyu Ikranä, do you know what other jobs there will be? And how will there be so much to do :P like a medic = a druidic tribal member who mixes leaves and things to create potions and such? (lol) shouldnt take that much time, also hunters wouldnt have to hunt all day because there will be alot of hunters, and we dont need that much meat, do we?
Not trying to attack u, just want to know the facts  ;D
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Offline Ikranä mokri

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #207 on: March 08, 2010, 10:45:22 am »
Quote
And Twonyu Ikranä, do you know what other jobs there will be? And how will there be so much to do  like a medic = a druidic tribal member who mixes leaves and things to create potions and such? (lol) shouldnt take that much time, also hunters wouldnt have to hunt all day because there will be alot of hunters, and we dont need that much meat, do we?


well there will be cooks, there will be builders, there will be scouts it would take to long and too much much of my time to do everything.

they may very well be people who have jobs that don't take very long btu then those people would have maybe 2 or 3 jobs to do over the day.

ever been hunting. its a slow process especially when you have to track your prey, and if you wanna have 3 good meals then brining home 2 deer would be enough for maybe 2 weeks but then you also have to plan incase of drought or famine in the area

there will be allot to do and if you find urself bored in teh tribe find me and ill make you run 8 miles or something lol





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Offline Swokéyan

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #208 on: March 08, 2010, 10:58:11 am »
Lol well then, i think im convinced.
Requires alot of stamina and a healthy condition i guess :P
I just hope i can make it, whenever it is.
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Offline sezawte

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #209 on: March 08, 2010, 12:03:03 pm »
The issue isn't so much that there's nothing apart from meat to eat, but more along the lines of you will suffer B vitamin and iron deficiency (amongst other things) out in the wild because there won't be other foods that can substitute for it, potentially protein deficiency as well depending on what other foods we have. If it makes you feel better you can be sure the animal was killed cleanly and was free range etc.
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Offline Txuraeyktan

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #210 on: March 28, 2010, 09:24:29 pm »
you have many very good points in this thread. but for me very little will change. i already hunt(and im 14) and fish and my family is poor so i dont get the nutrients i need anyways. i agree with some of your facts though, but i got 4 years till im old enough to go to it anyways so i can wait.
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Offline Unilfwewyu

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #211 on: March 29, 2010, 10:54:09 am »
I realise all these things you are trying to bring up ;). No worries about that. Thing is though, that my dreams are my dreams, and as I have mentioned probably a dozen of times on these forums since I joined, I am ready to pursue them. If I'm not joining this tribe do get dirty, I will be travelling around the world and still be filthy when entering the less then "well-living" countries we have on this planet.

I am ready and up for it.

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Offline Esmond

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #212 on: March 29, 2010, 12:14:19 pm »
Working hard and getting dirty really isn't as bad as it is. It makes life more rewarding and fulfilling.

However, the thing about ringworms and diseases are the things I'm most concerned of.

Help preserve Nature.

Offline Swokéyan

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #213 on: March 29, 2010, 12:21:32 pm »
Working hard and getting dirty really isn't as bad as it is. It makes life more rewarding and fulfilling.

However, the thing about ringworms and diseases are the things I'm most concerned of.

Yeah those are the only things that kinda holds me back, but if we find a ''safer'' area where there are less  diseases and stuff im totally in!
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Offline Esmond

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #214 on: March 29, 2010, 01:18:23 pm »
Yeah, who cares if we get dirty or we work our asses off as long as we don't get infected with all them nasty stuff.

Help preserve Nature.

Offline Swokéyan

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #215 on: March 29, 2010, 01:24:43 pm »
Thats the spirit! ;D
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Offline Tsamsiyu Atsteu

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #216 on: March 29, 2010, 04:48:44 pm »
I have a hard time believing that by having children down the line, that they will be taken away because of child abuse. What abuse would that be? I have taken criminal justice and as long as needs are met, there is education and safety there is no abuse. Look at those that are home-schooled, is that abuse? Just putting in my two cents. Also as for sex, you can do the naturally planning rhythm method of timing it to make sure there is no pregnancy or well, import condoms. You can't just deny a part of human nature that will inevitably happen.

I don't care if I have to work hard to sustain myself and my tribe. I want that. I want to be a part of something. I will hunt, and I will farm, and do what is needed for the people, which is why I added my name and such to begin with. We know it will be hard, but it will be rewarding, too.
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Offline Yeynari

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #217 on: March 29, 2010, 05:38:45 pm »
Beware, more wall of text!

- You will be dirty all the time.  The dirt will be in your nose, your hair, on your face, and so deep into your fingernails that they may bleed when you take your weekly hot bath.  After a wash, you will be clean for about 30 minutes.  Then you must get back to whatever work you do, and you will very quickly become dirty again.  Not to mention, you and everyone around you will smell like BO almost all the time.  You may or may not get used to it, and some people smell worse than others.

Being dirty on the body is not that bad, it's the hair that gives me trouble. The quickest solution to fat dirty hair is actually the braids that Na'vi sport, they are very practical if you don't want to develop dreadlocks or wash your hair every second day (waste of soap and water, once per week is enough).

-Speaking of bathing, you will need to make your own soaps.  Unless you have access to special oils, (coconut, palm, almond) these soaps will be harsh.  You will have to use these to wash your hair.

Rough soaps have a practical side too. You can use them to scrub off dirt, you won't drop them as easily as the modern silky soaps. For washing hair, just mix soap and hot water and you'll have a fairly nice shampoo. You can also add suitable herbs while heating the water, so you get your own herbal shampoo :)


- If you have a pre-existing skin condition, it will get worse.  Things like eczema, psoriasis, or acne will get worse, and you will have fewer options for treating them.

This is individual, it depends on what region you're in and on the disease as well. Some might get worse, others might get better due to healthy fod, exercise and a strengthened immune system. 

- Unless you plan on buying toilet paper, pooing is going to be awkward.
-Speaking of poo, no toilets means you are going to have to find alternate ways of dealing with waste that will prevent the spread of disease.

It depends on how sensitive you are. Obviously you'll have to wipe off using water and a hand, people do this in many parts of the world (look up "indian toilet"), and as long as you wash your hands clean afterwards the risk for disease-spreading is minor (but personal soaps might be a good idea).
Waste can be dealt with in many ways. For example, by digging a ditch about 2-3 feet deep, 2 feet wide and as long as neccessary, and use that as a community toilet. When the bottom is covered, throw in dirt so it's covered. This will smell due to the composting process, but keep it downwind and away from the camp and it shouldn't pose too much trouble. Since there's no toilet paper, which is what takes longest to decompose, it will turn into earth pretty fast. When it's full, cover it completely and dig another one some 20 meters away.

- You get ringworm from touching animals.  You can't wash off ringworm.  You need fungicide.
-Speaking of fungus, peeing on your feet is the best way to protect against athlete's food while you are in a dirty, damp environment.
- If you live in a tropical area, diseases like Dengu, and Malaria, and all a manner of frightening and strange parasites are much more common.

I've touched many dead and living animals, including ringworm-infected horses, and never caught it. As long as you keep a good hygiene and wash off directly afterwards, the risk of catching it is very low. But this is individual as well, some are more sensitive than others. Same with athlete's foot (had it many times, never treated it other than putting on healing herbs and keeping the area dry, it healed after a few days).
Tropical diseases and parasites, sadly true. And this should really be considered by those who propose moving to tropical areas, Parasites like amoebas are often not discovered fast enough, many of the diseases require immediate hospital care and can kill you very fast or leave you invalid if untreated.

- You will wake up before the sun rises and go to bed after it gets dark.  You will work, and work hard.  Harder than you've ever worked in your life.  Your muscles will first be sore, then stiff.  As your muscles grow, they will become tight.  You will have little time for special workouts and stretching.  When you pull a muscle in your back, you will not be able to visit a chiropractor.  When it hurts, you will not be able to sit in a comfy chair with a tylenol and an ice-back.  You will instead try to put it out of your mind as you work through the injury.  Then, at night, you will lay on a surface that is harder and lumpier than even an antique mattress.  (Unless you have feathers or a straw tick.  Then you have fleas to deal with.)  Oh yeah, did I mention the fleas?

Not having time for stretching is just a case of bad planning. This is something you should start and end your day with, after morning cleaning before breakfast and before you go to bed. Animals do this by instinct, dogs and cats for example stretch after almost each nap. If you pull a muscle, you still got other body parts with which to help out with until it's healed. And in a group of 10-15 people, if one person gets injured it's not a huge disaster.
As for hard beds, it can be solved. Not feathers, not straw. Brushwood, especially birch is great for this. A thick layer and then a reed mat or a fur of some kind is perfect, it keeps the sleeping area dry and provides ventilation beneath. And fleas are (again) a result of bad hygiene, this time dirty or moist bed materials. Solution: spread the brushwood out a bit every morning and hang the mat/furs up to ventilate, this causes the fleas to leave.

-You will get bored and depressed because all you do all day is work, just so you can eat dinner.
-Speaking of which.  Your food will be limited.  You cannot just eat whenever you feel the urge.  You will be ravenous by the time you get dinner.  Then, you will not eat until you're stuffed.  You will only eat enough to sustain yourself.  There will be no leftovers and there may not be enough for everyone to be satisfied.  Your meals will be very monotonous in taste.  Your herbs and spices are limited.  Limited salt, no pepper, no curry, no nutmeg, no tumeric, no chili powder or cumin, no sugar, no ketchup, no mustard, no mayo. NO PEANUT BUTTER! (omg!  Trust me, life without peanut butter is hell.) No vanilla or chocolate.  No coffee. You will often grow tired of what you're eating, and crave something else.  You won't get that something else to eat, and trust me, you will feel agitated and upset.  Nothing wears down your strength and optimism like hunger.

When the settlers first encountered the nomadic Seminole indians, they complained loudly about the "lazy indians" who were seemingly just laying about all day. Various studies have shown that to gather enough food (only vegetables) for one person for a day takes about 5 hours. A hunter have only about 14-25% chance of a successful hunt (deer or other big game), but if four hunters go out, they have a success percentage of about 86%. Traps and bird hunting is about the same. Successful fishing with nets and traps varies depending on area and season. But basically, the more people that gathers food, the more food there'll be. Imagine a group of 10-15 people all hunting, fishing or gathering, it means much more food than if one or two people do this. So no, I doubt anyone will have to go hungry. Spices can be found in plenty, as can salt and sugar if you know where to find it, and the food itself will taste completely different than modern people are used to. Some will be good, some will be bad, but never bland and boring.
The craving for "modern food" is something else entirely. It's something each person will have to master. But there will be sweets, maybe not as often as we're used to, but it will only make celebrations more special.


-About this permanent tribe business... how permanent is permanent? Do you mean to have children?  If you do, you will have your children taken away from you and you will be thrown in jail for child abuse.
I don't think having children is a good idea, mainly because of the disease risk. On the other hand, children have been raised in much worse conditions, and they did not have them taken away.

-what about Sex?  What if two members of the tribe get really horny, and they have sex.  What if one get's pregnant?  Then what?

Then I guess it will be dealt with just as it would during any other circumstances. Either you get protection beforehand, or you have an abortion, or you simply have the baby. I'm sure things can be worked out, but it's important that things like this are looked up beforehand.

-about Hunting: It feels bad to kill things.  Even when you know you're going to eat it.  I shot a squirrel once and almost threw up.  Can you kill an animal?  Really?  Once you have that fish in your hand, and it's gasping, and staring at you as you get ready to beat it on the head with a rock, can you really kill the thing?  If your tribe is short on food, and you need to poach an animal to survive, you will risk fines or jail time.  Can you deal with that?

Yes, it feels horrible. I still cry every time I kill a fish, despite having done so for many years. But is it really a bad thing? Imo, it's better than growing hard, because every single time it is a gift and it emphasises just how important death is for life to go on. If I have to kill another living being, the best and most I can do is giving this being as swift and clean a death as I can, and thank it for giving me this gift.

-about raising animals: It's way harder and way less rewarding than you may think.  Not only is it sad to raise an animal from birth, only to butcher it and eat it, but without things like tractors, electric fences, barns, vet care, and store-bought feed and supplements, raising livestock is back-breaking work.  In a tribal situation, the person/people responsible for tending such animals will have no time for anything else in their lives, otherwise the animals will suffer, die, get lost, get eaten, get sick, get into the garden and destroy it, get into someone's living space and destroy it, or eat something that either poisons it or makes the milk taste bad.  Chickens will attract predators such as wolves, coyotes, cougars, bobcats, other wild cats, foxes, feral dogs, bears, skunks, badgers, weasles, snakes, vultures, eagles, owls, and.... I feel like I'm missing some...

Raising animals in a tribal setting is pretty much out of the question. And you don't need tractors or store-bought feed to keep animals, unless you intend to keep high-yielding "factory-farm" animals which is out of the question in a small-scale eco-village. And it's much less work than you think, even without these things, because the proper animals for small-scale are multi-task animals that can live entirely off the land and still produce enough milk/meat/eggs/wool/manure to keep a self-sustaining farmhold going. From what you write here, I suspect USA doesn't have these old allround breeds (unless they've been imported, bred pure and kept the way they're supposed to be, I don't know what the situation is like tbh).


Tsamsiyu:

The natural rythm method only works if the woman has very stable periods. Personally I'd rather go for temporary sterilisation than trust that method, but if it works for someone else then great. Although I wish there were organic compostable condoms...
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Offline Txon Taronyu

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #218 on: March 29, 2010, 06:59:05 pm »
I love going poo in the woods, It feels so natural and just use leaves for toilet paper, ah yes

Ya and hunter gathers worked hard sometimes hand had a lack of stuff to do other times

and about sweats I know lots of tasty food you can make from only natural stuff
-eg. honey and honey ants
-summak berries (pink lemonad tasting)
-I have a whole book on food you can make from wild plants and animals
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Offline Esmond

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Re: Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.
« Reply #219 on: March 29, 2010, 10:04:26 pm »
In Malaysia it is common practice to wash after you poo so even if there is no toilet tissue it's fine as long as there is water.

Help preserve Nature.

 

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