Devil's Advocate and All the Bad Stuff.

[Swokéyan]

Yeynari i think you have some pretty great points!
Now this is a really great idea;

Being dirty on the body is not that bad, it's the hair that gives me trouble. The quickest solution to fat dirty hair is actually the braids that Na'vi sport, they are very practical if you don't want to develop dreadlocks or wash your hair every second day (waste of soap and water, once per week is enough).

It would save us hours of washing

[Rolyu]

Not to mention, you can't braid your hair like that by yourself.  I am sure that such extensive braids done by the Na'vi are great community and relationship building activities.  Kind of how many primates groom each other.

But yeah, the braids are genius.     You guys all have really good points.

[Jasiri]

So many threads and so little time!

Condoms - nobody ever heard of "lambskin" condoms? They are made from the intestinal membrane of a lamb. I should think that, for example, deer would be just as good. Biodegradable, too.

They are effective as contraception, but ineffective in protecting against sexually transmitted diseases.

There's a whole new craft skill and role within the tribe - one that could turn into a fulltime job. :p

I've got a lot more to say on the whole sexual dynamics matter. It really cannot be one of those "oh, we'll work it out when we get there" things. I'll try to get back to it after class.

PS

Question: What do you call a woman who uses the rhythm method?
Answer: Mommy!

[Swokéyan]

Yeah i think im aware of that fact, but if its possible we should do that for eachother, the braids, but then we have to grow long hair first!

I think this whole tribe thing will work our perfectly in time...

[Rolyu]

Question: What do you call a woman who uses the rhythm method?
Answer: Mommy!

2.5 years success and counting.

I would be careful who you're making fun of.

[Jasiri]

Question: What do you call a woman who uses the rhythm method?
Answer: Mommy!

2.5 years success and counting.

I would be careful who you're making fun of.

It was meant solely as a bit of levity, not as an insult, but point taken.

To each his/her own.

I do note that the rhythm method (FA) has an average failure rate of 12% to 25% on an annual basis according to plannedparenthood.org. Personally at this stage in my life, I don't like those odds.

My apologies for any offense given.

[Swokéyan]

The only and best solution is:
Oral xD

[Txon Taronyu]

Anyways....

we could just only allow children in the eco village only

and if you get pregenent you have to go to the eco village simple solution

[Rain]

I'm glad somebody brought up the subject of unplanned pregnancies, but wouldn't it also be okay to have a field-doctor in the eco-village who has a box of condoms for handing out? Just a random suggestion, unless you think it'd be more appropriate to make each member responsible for their own protection. Either way, you're making an effort to do something about it instead of ignoring it and then getting a nasty surprize later. Let's not have a repeat of the Mormon compund in Texas, eh?
Glad you're all discussing this in a mature fashion.

[Nantxe'lan]

Edit: Because i was a bit overeager this post turned out to be a bit too long and rude, therefore i put it in a spoiler-tag.

Spoiler

I hate to digg this old thread up but since it is allready listed in the "Tribe Directory" and has a matching topic name, i add my two pence here.

first i have to confess, i'm impressed. the planing goes quite well (as far as i can judge, digging through the forum since yesterday) and many unobvious but important things have been considered.

so even i think that what i'm going to say might sound a bit too harsh, so please accept my apologies if you feel offended. but experience taught me that it is better to point directly at a problem instead of describing it. and even if i risk to be torn appart or to be thought of as the "merchant of doom who tries to destroy our dream with his first post". i don't want to act like a wise ass loudmouth, and i try to prevent to give the impression i would do so. perhaps i get a bit rude in the heat of the battle, but this is noway ment to offend someone and i thought a lot about what i am going to write.

oh and just a warning:

Beware, more wall of text!

in a nutshell: in my oppinion, despite all the planning about a location, diseases, parasites, government, laws (tribal laws as well as laws of the "host country"), self-sufficiency and whatnot... this whole plan is (at least ATM) nothing more but preperation for a single "survival-trip", some kind of a "longtime vacation".
sure, for some it will be a lifelong trip but still just an "adventure".

i doubt i caught all the desicions which where made, so correct me, if i'm wrong. and if those issues are allready discussed, please don't hate me. but the whole planning seems to be a bit too much top-down, too much from the "Civilised Man's" point of view.
Especially social aspects seem to have got a raw deal in planning yet.
even though there are many discussions (or decissions) about things which involve an "as primitive as possible" way of life, especially concerning the tribe. but I'd say those topics are not "primitive" enough - for the tribe as well as for the eco-village. think a bit more primitive and mind the lowest level of human nature, the basic instincts. literally.

the first thing which came to my mind while reading the "applications" for the tribe as well as for the eco-village:
the vast majority is male.
not a problem on vacations or trips. but remember that some consider to be a permanent tribe/village member. i guess most of you have allready noticed that, but remind the consequences which come along with such a ratio. it is only human to look for a "mate" and not succeeding in this can really frenzy someone, no matter how peaceloving someone might be.
remember Tsu'Teys reaction when Neytiri revealed that she had mated with jake. he was definately not amused, although the Omaticaya have much more women. now imagine how this situation would look like with a 20/1 ratio of men to women.
sure, some tribe members here allready have a life companion. but first i guess not every companion shares the will to live out in the forest (not even in an eco-village due to the solitude). and second: not everyone has a companion yet and even if it takes years to establish the tribe, there will for sure be some singles left over. and I'm not talking about lovesickness or unrequited love, i talk about the pure, instinctive envy about "beeing able to reproduce".
and remember: history taught us that a single woman can become the sole reason for a war. and as for my part i'd dislike to take part in a minature scale trojan war.
at least it can be a nasty downer if someone's heart yearns to find a (soul)mate and is unable to find one due to a simple lack of women.
this problem might be unsolvable. at least i don't have any idea how we could avoid such complications, besides only allow pairs to join the tribe. so i'm open mindet to any sugestions.
and even if this problem actually IS unsolvable, it should atleast be kept in mind.
of course the tribe will be based on trust and respect. but remember that trust and repect are mostly a matter of mental attitude, not some kind of basic instinct.
this is also a possibly underestimated facette which changes drastically when joining the tribe. in your current setting you just have to drive to the next city to raise your chances to find someone. with the tribe there will be no "next city". you can either stay and be deperssed because you don't have a companion or leave and be depressed to give up your dream. and i don't think a community - no matter how familial and caring - could replace a companion forever. especially homosexuals should remind that, since they are statistically a minority. so the possibility to find a companion in the tribe is minimal and odds are even worse than in the "civilisation".
And i BET there are more (but too common to be easily found) social issues which change drastically with the tribe, which still need to be considered about.


another thing which worries me is how to keep the tribe alive. and I'm not talking about to keep it healthy/physically alive. i'm talking about keeping the idea, the IDEALS alive. I'm talking about "new blood", both due to recruiting as well as good ol' biological reproduction. of course the planing involves long term problems which might or will occur. but what about the actual long term future of the tribe itself? as far as i can judge the "long term plan" only includes the "first generation". those who are willing to give up their life to move to the middle of nowhere. after them there will be noone who continues the idea. it will be a single-generation-only-party - hence the comparsion with a "livelong vacation".
IMO it will get even more difficult to recruit new people for our idea the more "civilisation" and technologies evolve. to exaggerate a bit: what do you think how many people in future times will give up their voice opperated coffee machine in their fully automated house for a life which requires getting up at dawn and go hunting/fishing/whatever with the most primitive (or at least not state-of-the-art) tools? life can be so easy if you only have to order your meat and get it delivered home.
the only way to ensure the survival of the tribe would be to "reproduce" on our own. which leads back to the aforementioned unequal numbers of women and men.
but even if we DO reproduce ourselfes: we would need fresh blood to avoid "weak blood" due to long term incest. because at a certain point anyone is somehow relative to everyone else. ok, it would take a lot generations to come to that point, but it will hapen if we consider to reproduce.

talking about "weak blood":
We're all at a (more or less) healthy condition. but what if we actually decide to "reproduce" and a heavily disabled child is born? should it stay with us or should it get back to "civilisation"? and what about its parents?
of course i'd encourage the parents to move back into the civilisation, even if they must give up their dream for the sake of the child's welfare. but that is not an easy step to do, so you should keep in mind that it could happen.
same thing with people getting badly hurt, on worst case loosing a limb or even become paraplegic. although they might not need a real medcial intensive care, they might technically be a burden for the tribe. in all objectivity, going back to civilisation would be the best for them. and what about the "elders"? they will someday reach a point where the tribe isn't able to care enough for them anymore (geriatric nursing) both due to a lack of personel as well as a lack of propper equipment. but what if they don't want to leave? should we force them to leave to get a propper nursing or do we accept their will and leave them amongst us, watching them slowly waste away?

which leads to a unpleasant, yes a REALLY unpleasant topic which i doubt to be discussed allready:

DEATH.

We are mortal after all, so this is a very serious topic, especially if we decide to stay forever.
what do we do if someone passes away? due to aging or by accident? the problem with this topic is that it will partially depend on the host country's law. but we must consider what to do with the deceased.
as for my part i'd like to be burried either in my "old home" or in my "new home". but i swear i will rotate inside my coffin with a frequenzy of 300 cycles per second if i'm about to be burried - just because of the law - in a country i don't care a pap for, on the cemetery of a village which name i can't even pronounce.
but since i think having an own cemetery is quite impractical: besides a repatriation of remains, the only option left would be to cremate the remains and to scatter the ashes over our "new home" / into the forrest. but as mentioned above: this depends on the given law of the host country. Therefore we need more than one possibility to solve this situation, so we can be sure to fit (almost) all host countries.


going back to the more "living" topic of having children:

Anyways....

we could just only allow children in the eco village only

and if you get pregenent you have to go to the eco village simple solution

i agree with that, though i have my concerns about it.
A (more or less) well known problem of real natives who are in touch with the modern civilisation is that their children tend to move away, not showing much interest in their ancestors ways. or just for the sake of earning more money or getting all that fancy bells and whistles which the high tech civilisation has to offer.
because of the solitude this might be a minor problem for us. but to be honest: i doubt a child risen in the Eco-Vilage would join the "real" tribe later and would leave behind all that modern stuff the village has to offer.
the only possibility to succeed with this would be (IMO) old fashioned indoctrination and propaganda: to talk the village down. sad but true. remember this is not like a child who must chose what it likes better - rural or urban setting. this is more like a choice between "stoneage and industrial revolution". whereas if a child grows in the tribal comunity it adapts this way of life and can resist the human nature of seeking comfortableness without completely dooming it. so deciding that parrents MUST raise their kids in the village is not all good. both ways have their pros and cons.
besides that i fear that sooner or later the majority of the "real" tribe will move to the Eco-Village because it makes life a bit easier or at least a bit more comfortable. Although this is just my personal fear. and everyone should do what suits him best.
and just a thought about "birth control": how could we pretend to become overpopulated?


more or leass complete change of subject:
despite that, i have the faint suspicion that the responsibility needed to establish the tribe is not understood in its full width by a few.
remember, that we will nevertheless INVADE an allready existing, balanced out ecosystem. so to be truthfully serving Eywa, we must manage to integrate us. even if we hunt only as much as we need (or even less): 20 people are enough to have a decent impact on the animal population. and i read somewhere about 50-150 estimated tribe members, which would lead to a quite heavy impact on wildlife if we aren't hyper carefull. despite that prepare for closed seasons or atleast not getting any meat since the only game you spot are mother animals with cubs, which i would count as prohibited to shoot.
so if you haven't allready figured out: in the first years, meat is rare. VERY rare. prepare to cover your need of nutrition with vegetables or with animals with more than 4 legs. if we figure out how high the population of game actually is we might consider to hunt more. if we're carefull and lucky the population might increase by itself to compensate the loss. but perhaps this situation might never ever change. then we would have to carefully "breed" them, allways taking care of not overpopulating them. but the main source of nutrition will come from vegetables, fish and insects, all the time. fish will be a valuable source, too. but even with fishing we must be carefull. and this will count for the tribe aswell as for the village.
oh and BTW: Since it looks like most of us want to be at least a "part time hunter": hunters will most likely have not too much to doo. at least at the beginning. it will be more like playing a forester, watching the game, counting groups, guessing population, etc...
quoting the "Weekly Tribe News":

]b]Location:[/b] Tropical - Subtropical climate (preference for sub.).
[...]
Eco Village: Electricity and permanent housing, permanent agriculture. Site for computers and medicine.
[...]

this means a lot of thinking since the flora is quite different to what most of you are accustomed to. either we have to focus on allready existing flora to cultivate or we must take GREATEST care that no seeds get into the wild. otherwise it could actually cut down or at least threaten the whole ecosystem. depending on the location it might be easier, but also we could run into a prohibition of imported plants by law. the most sensitive case would be an island since those ecosystems are REALLY fragile.
same for animals/pets. even domesticated they can screw up an eco system. for example: dogs/cats might start to poach. or the animals could introduce diseases or parasites uncommon to the area.
the effects might not be visible at once. perhaps it needs several 100s of years until the effect becomes visible. no matter how long it takes to be visible: if you can SEE it, then it is most likely allready too late.

the prementioned faint suspicion comes (among other things) due to the fact that some are willing to be a "Tribe Warrior". A Warrior? For what purpose? we won't have any enemies. and if we unfortunately happen to get some, they'll have firearms. LOTS of firearms. and even if we happen to have not a single gun, but decide to fight back nevertheless: i think a "hunter" is way more efficient since the only way to survive such a skirmish would be guerilla tactics - stealth is the key. a "warrior" will be shot down before he even finishes a battlecry.
but since the warrior-wish seems to be almost exclusively spread amongst the youngest around here, i guess it's just a still too romanticized imagination of what the life in a tribe would be, so theres nothing to blame at all, since this will most likely vanish with the years passing until this project is finally realized.
but it shows that some might not be completely aware of the dangers which they will face (or NOT face in this case). not to talk about to know which danger comes from US.

to come to a conclusion:
Perhaps some of you might disagree, but i claim that we are actually about to create a WHOLE NEW CULTURE out of nothing and that this fact is perhaps not clear to everyone.
so the main question, which should IMO be answered at the very first:

Do we actually want to create that culture, or are we allready sattisfied with just setting up a 40+ years lasting adventure vacation?

if it is the latter, you can ignore most of my mentioned issues or take them easy. but otherwise i think the mentioned issues deserve a good attention.

['Itan Atxur]

I didn't read the entire post, but much of what I've read has already been adressed. The male/female ratio has slowly improved as we've built a more solid foundation. Most women are more objective than men and not prone to act on a whim. If we get a REAL plan, if we can show that this can work, more women will show.

As for the idea, it's impossible to kill an idea. It's been created and even if the creators of the idea move on, new people will pick it up. This has already happened with this idea to an extent.

[Key'ìl Nekxetse]

Another problem, I've been thinking about; what happens (if) when people get old?
You can't keep this sort of lifestyle up easily when you're fit and healthy and young, let alone if you're 80. What do we do?
I have no answers.

I hadn't seen this thread. Made me think twice, although I had already considered some of these issues and decided that it would be worth it. This is important, I think everyone should have a look!

[Predict]

First off, I wouldn't worry about the male/female ratio. Hardly any of the profiles posted have become active members, of those who have it is a much more respectable balance: maybe 70:30. Also, don't worry, none of the 'warriors' have returned after more than a week.

Before I go any further I think we need to acknowledge that this is, essentially, an experiment. Everyone must be comfortable with that. We don't know if this will work and we can't predict what the outcome will be. Most of what  you have mentioned are potential social issues that are very difficult to manage ahead of time.

Furthermore, we won't be launching into this in one go. We won't be going to one place on day one and closing ourselves out from the world. Once we have a location there will be a lot of management: working out any financial backing, sorting out any citizenship issues. Then we will be making frequent trips to set up the eco-village, train ourselves, adapt to the environment, &c. That will be a very good point to recruit new members (I mean to say, if we were at that stage now would you not join?). It will be a long time before there is a large, permanent group established.

In response to your last question. It is our intention to create an entirely new culture. We cannot know if we will succeed but we will try.

[Nantxe'lan]

ok, this wasn't a good start at all.

Oe tsap'alute, ma smuk.

i already mentioned in my previous post that it would be a bit harsh. but in hindsight i think it was way too rude. so please accept my appoligies. it was unfair to compare the planning with a preperation for an adventure vacation or to question the attitute of this project.
i was a bit overeager to throw in my concerns. most likely because my own project died due to a lack of interest and the discovery of this real-life Na'vi tribe project was like slapping a "lifejacket for this situation" right through my face.
i know that this whole project cannot be completed at a moment's notice. not even if the planning is finished. i know that this might become based on trial and error. but i somehow forgot that in the heat of the moment while writing my concerns.
but nevertheless i think my mentioned issues - although not too urgent by nature - shouldn't be considered too late, since some of them might be important to some people if they will join/stay or not.
additionally some of these issues will interact with other topics, so they should be taken into account soon enough.
btw: i doulbesearched the tribe's subforums bot i couldn't find anything about those issues, so i just GUESS they haven't been discussed yet.

to name them:
- women to man ratio (apparently allready concerned with, but listet for the sake of completeness)
- how to proceed with members becoming disabled / children are born disabled
- how to proceed with the elders reaching a certain grade of need for care (Key'ìl Nekxetse also asked about it)
- how to proceed with the deceased
- how to avoid overpopulation
- how to keep the ecosystem we will "invade" in balance
- how to raise children without indoctrination and propaganda but keep them stuck to the tribe (the whole tribe in general and the not-eco-village-tripe in particular) at the same time
- how to avoid "weak blood"

and of course:
- other social issues. we will never be able do take every aspect into account, that's for sure. but it would be wise to think about social dynamics in advance and have at least a rough plan how to handle/avoid most issues, since this is the main pillar, this whole project is based on: a community with an appropriate dynamic.

about those issues interacting with other topics: the way to proceed with the deceased for example will depend on the location, et vice versa. plus it might be a "hot topic" for some people, which want to know in advance what happens to them after they've passed away.
and other topics will also interact with each other, so it should be assured that they do not colide.

of course chances are high that this project will never face those situations (not lasting long enough or breaking up after a period of time for example). but i think those topics should be taken care of before they occur or get in conflict with other decisions.

i better stop at this point before getting into the "wise ass loudmouth mood" again

[Tonbogiri]

oel ngati kameie,

This is a great organised way of putting things. Much better than the endless text blocks which we were plagued with at the start (we had these from the "warriors" who joined at the start) - you have thought this through well.

You're right, most of these were never dicussed in full detail (i.e. never had threads of their own), and we only hinted on some. The main reason for this, as you rightly said, is the fact that we are not yet sure how long the tribe would last. It is of course our (and definitely my own) dream for it to run forever, but it would be counter-productive to use time and resources that could be better spent on our current location dilemnas.

I feel that once the location is set up (or at least narrowed down to several conceivable options), and we have a structured chronological plan for how things will work, then we can get started on "the future of the tribe". We cannot, however, shove these problems under the rug and they need to be addressed.

[Esmond]

We're more like primitive immigrants right now, looking for a better life.

First off we have to find a place suitable for us, then we shall address such issues. I agree with EyesOfAzure that we have to address these issues and I compliment him for bringing them up (some of which had never crossed my mind before). But Tonbogiri also has a good point in saying that we have to first settle our location dilemmas.

I'd just want to briefly reply to one of the issues brought up by EyesOfAzure "how to raise children without indoctrination and propaganda but keep them stuck to the tribe (the whole tribe in general and the not-eco-village-tripe in particular) at the same time".

We're not going to use propaganda or indoctrination. We're simply going to teach them. Just like how our parents teach us manners, teach us moral values. We're teaching them values but in a different context. I believe if we raised them in a way such that they love Nature and Nature plays a big role in their lives, we're doing the right thing. Whether they leave or not is simply their choice. I'm sure out of a group of children brought up this way, there'll only be one or two who'd want to leave such a way of life.

They might see modern industrial life as a worse path to choose. Maybe from a tribal child's viewpoint, a primitive life is a better life. You're seeing this from a civilized man viewpoint. =P

['Itan Atxur]

We'll teach our children (if we even decide it's okay to have children, but that's a different discussion for a different day) morality and such in a more hands on way than modern society allows.  But I don't think we'll say "this is right and this is wrong". Our method for teaching should allow them to decide what's right. If we do this properly they will have taught them selves and perhaps even us.

[Redpaintednavi]

Good day to you all. I am new here but perhaps I would just like to come with an advice or two?

First, read all literature you can get you hand on about tribal people and tribal ways. And even better, if you can, get in contact with people who live, or have lived, in tribal societies. They can tell you a lot about how it is to really live in such societies, not only the practical issues, but evenly important the social issues, how to avoid conflicts, how to get along, how to share descisions and many things like that.
Also remember that in real tribal communities people had really deep bonds to each other, more deep than most people in our societies. Often the members of such societies were related in some or another way, they lived together all life, they saw each other be born, grow up, age and finally die.
Also they had a deep level of knowledge about the land, about plants, animals, climate, terrain and similar that noone in our modern society has. For example I once heard an anthropolgist say that he in the Amazon of Equador had met a people where the hunters could smell animals urine from 40 paces away and descide what sort of animal it was. These people could feel also the difference between plants that are so closely realated that even botanists from modern society confuse them.
If you have no tribal people to talk with, at least talk to old farmers and other people that also have lived close to the land their whole lives. They can give you soo many advice about things you have never thought about.

About chickens which was mentioed by the OP. If you shall have some animals, let it be chicken. They are easy to hold, the multiply fairly quick, they can eat many different things (insects, larvae, worms, seeds), they lay good eggs. The main problem is protection, but you could build cages out of reeds or similar, where you keep them in the night, and you can watch them in the day. Chicken is what probably saved the people of Easter island when they had depleeted most of its resources, and did not even had trees to make boats to get away from the island or going out fishing.

['Itan Atxur]

Very good post ma eylan. I certainly intend to read up on as much as I can though meeting a real tribe or someone who was part of one would be very valueable.

I also like the idea of having chickens.

[Esmond]

If I ever get the chance to fly to Sarawak state, I can visit the natives there. Dunno when I can do that though.