Religion 2

['Itan Atxur]

Unfortunately what you're saying is because you don't understand something, something else must be true. I sure as heck don't understand DNA replication, but the only conclusion I can make from that is that I don't understand DNA replication.

But as for the first part of your post, thats pretty much exactly how I understand it.

[Esmond]

Its not about miracles and stuff. I don't care about those. The one question no one seems to have been able to sensibly answer is this, take two people from two sides of the world. Two of them have done good almost all their lives, one is a Christian, one is a Buddhist (or whatever religion).

Why does the Christian go to Heaven and the Buddhist to Hell? You say because everyone is born with sin (because of Adam and Eve but who knows if that was made up as well) and that you need to believe in Jesus to cleanse that Sin. How is that sensible? So doing good doesn't matter anymore?

I believe that God created everything but in the sense that He incorporated evolution in His creations. He allowed His creations to grow and improve. You don't believe in evolution or you don't believe that we are what we are after evolution?

[abi]

But really, it does. If God had made Adam and Eve "perfect", then they wouldn't have had free will, and they wouldn't be able to choose to do right all the time. Instead they would be forced to do the right thing. So God lets Satan tempt them and lets them commit a sin. Thus the grand scheme to eradicate sin and keep free will was started. And yeah, it's taken a long time, but you gotta remember, time is irrelevant to God. So that doesn't really matter.

Because "believe in me and my son or you'll burn forever" is honestly giving people an option to do what they want to?

I also love how the biggest argument Christian (and other religion) haters have is "Why doesn't God preform miracles, like heeling amputees? And why does he only preform miracles for some things, like cancer?" My answer is simple: He has been separated from us. He can't really get involved here because sin runs rampant so much.

So the all powerful creator can't help is creation because we do too much stuff he doesn't like?

On a different matter:

My biggest confirmation that some sort of Creator exists and Evolution is at least partially untrue is DNA replication as well as mRNA and the ribosome process. I mean, seriously. That is WAY too complex and specific to be created by chance.

Your right, it wasn't created by chance. Evolution isn't about chance, evolution is about the diversity of species via natural selection. If an organism isn't fit enough to reproduce it dies, if it is then it breeds. It's as simple as that.

[guest2859]

My biggest confirmation that some sort of Creator exists and Evolution is at least partially untrue is DNA replication as well as mRNA and the ribosome process. I mean, seriously. That is WAY too complex and specific to be created by chance.

Hm, never heard that before. It's way too complex, but isn't nature in itself? Well, actually not, the way we mad it is. The ribosome process, or the DNA Transcribing, is actually a fairly simple process. I think it is just not fully understandable. But Mitosis and Meiosis are hard to explain, really, if something goes wrong with that, you're going to finish it up with some major deformity.

[Esmond]

Read Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species. I'm in the middle mine.

[Tsäroltxe te Eyrutì Tantse'itan]

Also look up the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it points out a "flaw" in intelligent design.

[Esmond]

Ah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, classic.

[Tsäroltxe te Eyrutì Tantse'itan]

Yes, and extremely funny!

http://www.venganza.org/

['Itan Atxur]

Also check out Carl Sagans TV series "cosmos".

[Tsäroltxe te Eyrutì Tantse'itan]

ok, will do.

[Esmond]

Righto.

[Unilfwewyu]

It has been proven early organisms did not have DNA. Now, how they have created an evolution to become living things such as fish (We are all based on the fish after all), we have to leave that to evolution. I highly doubt "God" would have had anything to do with this.

Actually, the thory of a God actually being the creator of the "universe" has been disproven >.> The reason why I say this is because religions ONLY mention that the "God" created the universe, but NEVER mentioned that it created a multiverse. It is therefore either disproven (Which means, no god) because he never would have created the multiverse, or there is possibly more than 1 god?

Here is the link, it is the most amazing thing we have dicovered up to now.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/03/100322-dark-flow-matter-outside-universe-multiverse/

[Tsäroltxe te Eyrutì Tantse'itan]

Wow!...I love the multiverse, thanks for bringing that up! 

[Esmond]

Ooh, interesting thought. Maybe each God is entitled to one universe?

[Kìte'eyä Aungia]

Wasn't going to post this for fear of derailing the thread, but it looks like it's turning into a discussion of theology anyway. Maybe a mod can split it up.

I'm no expert on the subject, and my explanation may be less than helpful, but I'll give it a shot;

From what I know, God made us imperfect so that we would have free will.

Here you say; WUT? YU NOB TAT MAKES NO SENS!

But really, it does. If God had made Adam and Eve "perfect", then they wouldn't have had free will, and they wouldn't be able to choose to do right all the time. Instead they would be forced to do the right thing.

I still don't see how that makes sense. If you were suddenly incapable of thinking of killing someone (or some other sin), would you say you had lost your free will? I don't think you would. There appear to be plenty of things we can't think of because we are limited in a number of ways.

Spoiler

In mathematics we have frameworks for dealing with objects in more than 3 dimensions, but it is impossible for us to conceive of such things mentally because our minds simply don't work that way. We can only keep a small number of things in memory at a time, we can't properly conceive of very large numbers, sizes, or distances, we're naturally xenophobic and experience in-group bias. The list goes on and on.

Now, I also have an issue with the entire idea of free will . . .

Spoiler

. . . namely that it's ill-defined and probably nonsensical as a concept. I mean, it's tautological that everything that happens, including our decisions, is either completely dependent on the state of the universe, completely random, or dependent on the state of the universe but incorporating some element of randomness. The only variable here for God to manipulate is how random He wants the decisions of His creations to be. We know that our decisions are made by our brains. We can stimulate the brain to force people to think of specific things, and by damaging or manipulating the brain we can affect a person's personality or remove their ability to think, feel, or do certain things. If God designed the universe and our brains, then God must have known what kinds of decisions we would make to a high degree of accuracy (I would say complete accuracy, but the real world does appear to have some elements of randomness at the level of the very small). No free will involved.

And of course, if God is omniscient and knows the future (as some believe), there can be no free will anyway.

On a different matter:

My biggest confirmation that some sort of Creator exists and Evolution is at least partially untrue is DNA replication as well as mRNA and the ribosome process. I mean, seriously. That is WAY too complex and specific to be created by chance.

As has been pointed out by others, this is what's known as an argument from personal incredulity. The issue here is why should anyone, yourself included, care about what you think is way too complex and specific to have resulted from evolution? Arguments from incredulity are not a form of proof, and the fact that you likened evolution to "chance" indicates that you perhaps don't have a solid understanding of how evolution works.

[Txon Taronyu]

I don't think anybody read my post a long time ago it was good  

edit: here is my post I thought of it a few days ago

Christains should listen to this (not offensive)
jesus said "I am the way,the truth, and the life. Nobody gets to the father exept through me"
So what is Jesus, well he is said to be god.
So what is God, God is love or an embodyment of virtue
so if J=G and g=v then J=V mathamaticly
so virtue/love is the way the truth and the life
I just proved that as long as your good you have eternal life
so all religions are good (from a christian view) as long as they teach virtue try arguing but its mathamatical

does that make sense to anybody

[Kìte'eyä Aungia]

I don't think anybody read my post a long time ago it was good  

edit: here is my post I thought of it a few days ago

It's a good message, but I don't think your argument is going to convince many Christians.

jesus said "I am the way,the truth, and the life. Nobody gets to the father exept through me"

He did:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So what is Jesus, well he is said to be god.

In a very, "we worship the father, the son, and the holy spirit. But we only have one God" sort of way.

So what is God, God is love or an embodyment of virtue

No, God is the omnipotent creator god and supreme being of the Christian faith, often described as being incredibly loving and virtuous. There's obviously a difference.

so if J=G and g=v then J=V mathamaticly

Again, God is not love or virtue in a literal sense, He is loving and virtuous. Love and virtue are abstract concepts, they can't create stuff and walk around in human form talking to people.

so virtue/love is the way the truth and the life
I just proved that as long as your good you have eternal life
so all religions are good (from a christian view) as long as they teach virtue try arguing but its mathamatical

does that make sense to anybody

In addition, the context of the bible passage you quoted must also be considered. Jesus had just told his disciples that he would be leaving to prepare a place for them in heaven, and so Thomas asked Jesus how they were to know the way. Jesus is saying that Christianity is the only religion that leads to heaven, which is the exact opposite of your conclusion.

[Txon Taronyu]

well it was just a way of thing about it I never said you had to belive it

also the bible never really gives much info into what god is but basiclly he is the all loving creator so I still stand by what I said

still I say again this is just one way of thinking about it

also I am just trying to make us(christians) more open to other teachings since they do have some truth which is undeniable

btw I am a christian( not a traditional one though)

[Tonbogiri]

Now to fulfill my role as comic relief in sensible situations:

(no offense meant, just click it!)

[Kìte'eyä Aungia]

well it was just a way of thing about it I never said you had to belive it

I never implied you said that. If you didn't want constructive criticism, why did you post your argument twice in two days asking if it made sense to people?

also the bible never really gives much info into what god is but basiclly he is the all loving creator so I still stand by what I said

Yes, He is a very specific creator. There is only one of Him, and He has many attributes which differentiate Him from the creator gods of other religions. But just being all loving does not make God love itself (the abstract concept), and I think it's fairly clear that Jesus was not referring to loving and virtuous conduct in that passage. He goes on to say in 14:21 and 15:6 that only those who abide by His commandments are beloved by God.

still I say again this is just one way of thinking about it

Agreed, and it is an interesting interpretation. I just don't think it's very convincing.