Author Topic: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out  (Read 2599 times)

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Offline Nuruhuine

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A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« on: December 27, 2009, 10:57:51 pm »
Kaltxi ma aysmukan si aysmuke
Oel ayngari kameie.
Ayngaru lu fpom srak?

I tried to make a few sentences in Na'vi... I posted them in the Japanese section of the forum, but no one cared to answer. I would like to have the community's feedback for things to correct, impressions, etc...
Here goes:

Nipontutel Na'vit ke nayume längam...
Japanese people-ERG / Na'vi-ACC / negation / learn-future tense / seem-negative inflection
I'm under the impression that Japanese people won't learn Na'vi, unfortunately.

Na'viri oeyä txe'lan ni tok. Oe niNa'vi Fra'trr niyol niftxavang tskxekeng siei.
N'avi-TOP / my / heart / in / be. I / everyday / ADV making prefix-long(time) / passionately / train / do-positive inflection.
I love Na'vi. (Na'vi is in my heart) Everyday, I train (learn) passionately for long periods of time.

Na'via kifkey ngay ke längu. Txo oel Na'vit nume, kxawm kawkrr layängu slä na numeyu oeru fpom leiu. (a lot of assumptions here...)
Na'vi-GEN / world / true / negation / be-negative inflection. If / I-ERG / Na'vi-ACC / learn / perhaps / not-one-time / be-future tense + negative inflection (ugh!) / but / as / learner / I-DAT / well-being / be-positive inflection
Unfortunately, (the) Na'vi (language) isn't the "real world". If I learn Na'vi, perhaps I will lose my time but as a learner, I feel good (learning it).

Ma tsmukan, nga meli'fay niNa'vi si niYapanis tsun plltxe niltsan nang! Nga txantslusam lu.
Prroton / you / both-word (languages) these / in Na'vi / and / in Japanese / can / speak / well / particle for surprise. you / much-knowing / be.
Tsmukan, you can speak both Na'vi and Japanese very well. This is quite impressive.

Any constructive criticism is more than welcome, brothers.

Eywa ayngahu, aysmukan si aysmuke!!

-Nuru.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2009, 11:28:05 pm »
Kaltxi ma aysmukan.

Nipontutel Na'vit ke nayume längam...

I like the use of Nipontute. Should be ayNipontute, though, unless you're making it a collective plural.

Na'viri oeyä txe'lan ni tok. Oe niNa'vi Fra'trr niyol niftxavang tskxekeng siei.

Na'viri oeyä txe'lan mì keltu si. <- would work better. "Live", and "in". I don't see why you made Na'vi an adverb. yol should be an adjective, modiying time, so ayol. seii is better, if awkward.

Na'via kifkey ngay ke längu. Txo oel Na'vit nume, kxawm kawkrr layängu slä na numeyu oeru fpom leiu.

I think Pandora can safely be used as world, not Na'vi. Or make it Na'viyä, the genetive. na isn't "like, love", it's "like, as", a comparative. Might need to edit that somewhat.

Ma tsmukan, nga meli'fay niNa'vi si niYapanis tsun plltxe niltsan nang! Nga txantslusam lu.

Heh. meayli'f - ay is a prefix only, although this is a bit awkward. ni should be mì, I think. Yapanisì, as following convention. No need for the !.

Offline Coda

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2009, 12:32:10 am »
Japanese uses glottal stops in between double consonants in words like Nippon, so would nipxontute be more correct?  Also, why not use nipxongo instead of yapanisi?  It seems a little more consistent, and Japanese shares a lot more in common with Na'vi than English, so why stay close to the source?   ;D
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 12:38:36 am by Coda »

Offline Nuruhuine

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2009, 12:41:49 am »
Thanks for answering Taronyu
Irayo ngaru folmawn ma Taronyu.

Nipontutel Na'vit ke nayume längam...
I like the use of Nipontute. Should be ayNipontute, though, unless you're making it a collective plural.
==> I did want to make it a collective plural. Because imo, ayNipontute sounds more like there are many japanese people as in many japanese communities that have they own land in the world.

Na'viri oeyä txe'lan ni tok. Oe niNa'vi Fra'trr niyol niftxavang tskxekeng siei.
Na'viri oeyä txe'lan mì keltu si. <- would work better. "Live", and "in". I don't see why you made Na'vi an adverb. yol should be an adjective, modiying time, so ayol. seii is better, if awkward.
==> Now realize I made 2 mistakes here, I meant to say "mi" for in and "seii" for the verb at the end, although it seems to me that you're right because "seii" seems awkward to pronunce.
But yeah, I find your idea with "keltu si" very nice and much better than my own. Considering there is no "to like / love" verb yet, I had to think of something creatively.
As for "yol", i wanted to make it an adv. I meant to say "Fra'trr = everyday" and "niyol = lengthly (if it can be said), a long period of time (but adv)"


Na'via kifkey ngay ke längu. Txo oel Na'vit nume, kxawm kawkrr layängu slä na numeyu oeru fpom leiu.
I think Pandora can safely be used as world, not Na'vi. Or make it Na'viyä, the genetive. na isn't "like, love", it's "like, as", a comparative. Might need to edit that somewhat.
==> "Na'viyä" seems to be a good idea. "Na'viyä kifey ngay ke längu".
As for "na", I did mean to say "like, as". I meant to say "As a learner, I enjoy it" : "na numeyu oeru fpom leiu".


Ma tsmukan, nga meli'fay niNa'vi si niYapanis tsun plltxe niltsan nang! Nga txantslusam lu.
Heh. meayli'f - ay is a prefix only, although this is a bit awkward. ni should be mì, I think. Yapanisì, as following convention. No need for the !.
==> For "meli'fay", I meant to say litteraly "both-language-these". "fay" means "these". You can find it in the Pocket Guide page 8, under the table with all the questions and demonstratives.
I didn't know about the exclamative mark. Thank you.


Gonna work on some other sentences.
Eywa ngahu ma tsmukan. ;)

-Nuru.

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2009, 12:42:10 am »
Na'via kifkey ngay ke längu. Txo oel Na'vit nume, kxawm kawkrr layängu slä na numeyu oeru fpom leiu.

I think Pandora can safely be used as world, not Na'vi. Or make it Na'viyä, the genetive. na isn't "like, love", it's "like, as", a comparative. Might need to edit that somewhat.
Pandora is the human name for it, not the Na'vi.  I'd imagine the Na'vi would think of their moon as Eywa.  I also don't see them calling it Na'viyä since their attitude isn't that the world is theirs, but that they are part of the world.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Nuruhuine

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2009, 12:49:01 am »
omängum fra'uti:
Pandora is the human name for it, not the Na'vi.  I'd imagine the Na'vi would think of their moon as Eywa.  I also don't see them calling it Na'viyä since their attitude isn't that the world is theirs, but that they are part of the world.
==> Very good point imo. Well, I'll have to think of something.

Coda:
Japanese uses glottal stops in between double consonants in words like Nippon, so would nipxontute be more correct?  Also, why not use nipxongo instead of yapanisi?  It seems a little more consistent, and Japanese shares a lot more in common with Na'vi than English, so why stay close to the source?
==> I thought about using "Yapanis" for 2 reasons: the 1st one is that Na'vi use English words そのまま. For instance for "Gunship", they say "kunsip". What you say would make sense if the people on Pandora were Japanese, but they're not.
And since English people say "Japanese", I thought of something as close as possible phonetically. The 2nd reason is because there's no "J" in Na'vi". Imo, the closest phonem is "y". Thus "Yapanis".
Not to say that I'm absolutely right though, it is just the reasoning behind the word.


Irayo ngaru folmawn ma aysmykan!
Eywa ayngahu.

-Nuru.

Offline Prrntxe

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2009, 01:19:11 am »
Kaltxì ma aysmuktu...

Na'viri oeyä txe'lan mì keltu si. <- would work better. "Live", and "in".

Question: do you mean to say that the Na'vi people live in your heart, or the Na'vi language? To me, this sentence is about the people.  At least, the glossary defines "Na'vi" as "The People (name for themselves)". And this is how a lot of African. Australian, and American Indian tribes names themselves, just using their own word for "people" (or sometimes getting chauvinistic and calling themselves "the real people"). Thus, "nìNa'vi plltxe" would mean something like "speak like a real person". I imagine (heavy emphasis on *imagine*) this was what Dr. Frommer was going for.

Coda:
Japanese uses glottal stops in between double consonants in words like Nippon, so would nipxontute be more correct?  Also, why not use nipxongo instead of yapanisi?  It seems a little more consistent, and Japanese shares a lot more in common with Na'vi than English, so why stay close to the source?
==> I thought about using "Yapanis" for 2 reasons: the 1st one is that Na'vi use English words そのまま. For instance for "Gunship", they say "kunsip". What you say would make sense if the people on Pandora were Japanese, but they're not.
And since English people say "Japanese", I thought of something as close as possible phonetically. The 2nd reason is because there's no "J" in Na'vi". Imo, the closest phonem is "y". Thus "Yapanis".
Not to say that I'm absolutely right though, it is just the reasoning behind the word.

How about "Tsäpanis" or "Tsäpaniz"? (I'm thinking j -> ch -> ts, kinda like じ -> ち -> つ)

- Prrntxe
Oeri Loräkx lu. Fpi ayutral plltxe oe.

Offline Coda

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2009, 01:45:17 am »
Kaltxì ma aysmuktu...

Coda:
Japanese uses glottal stops in between double consonants in words like Nippon, so would nipxontute be more correct?  Also, why not use nipxongo instead of yapanisi?  It seems a little more consistent, and Japanese shares a lot more in common with Na'vi than English, so why stay close to the source?
==> I thought about using "Yapanis" for 2 reasons: the 1st one is that Na'vi use English words そのまま. For instance for "Gunship", they say "kunsip". What you say would make sense if the people on Pandora were Japanese, but they're not.
And since English people say "Japanese", I thought of something as close as possible phonetically. The 2nd reason is because there's no "J" in Na'vi". Imo, the closest phonem is "y". Thus "Yapanis".
Not to say that I'm absolutely right though, it is just the reasoning behind the word.

How about "Tsäpanis" or "Tsäpaniz"? (I'm thinking j -> ch -> ts, kinda like じ -> ち -> つ)

- Prrntxe

I think Yapanisi is the correct transliteration for "Japanese" for the reasons nuru listed, but I still don't see why nipxongo wouldn't be the better choice if we're already translating "Japanese person" as nipxontute.  If we're going to go with Yapanisi, then we should keep it consistent by saying Yapanitute.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 02:41:53 am by Coda »

Offline Nuruhuine

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2009, 02:00:13 am »
Thx for your imput Prrntxe,
I'm at work at the moment, so I can't answer but I did read what you said and I think it's a very interesting point. It'd be nice to have some feedback from Paul Frommer to clear things out.


Offline Prrntxe

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2009, 03:17:38 am »
I think Yapanisi is the correct transliteration for "Japanese" for the reasons nuru listed, but I still don't see why nipxongo wouldn't be the better choice if we're already translating "Japanese person" as nipxontute.  If we're going to go with Yapanisi, then we should keep it consistent by saying Yapanitute.

This is the way I'm looking at it:

Imagine you're a Na'vi learning English, maybe in Dr. Augustine's school. She tells you about the Japanese (maybe a Japanese mining company is working somewhere else on Pandora). You hear this word "Japanese". How would it sound to you? What would it sound like to Grace as you tried to say the word in your Na'vi accented English?

First the 'j'. Na'vi has only one affricate: ts. An affricate is a sound that starts as a plosive but is released as a fricative. They're even transcribed that way: /ts/ in Na'vi, and /tʃ/ and /dʒ/ ('ch' and 'j') in English. But there are no voiced plosives in Na'vi. That's why "gunship" became kunsìp. The /g/ was devoiced to /k/. There are also no postalveolar fricatives (/ʃ/ 'sh' and /ʒ/ 'zh'). So when Na'vi hear them, they replace them with alveolars (/s/ and /z/). That's how "English" became 'ìnglìsì. If they borrowed the word "beige" (a color not found on Pandora), it would probably become beyzì.

So, what to do with /dʒ/? I'd bet the /d/ would be devoiced to /t/. After that, /ʒ/ would slide forward to /z/, but /tz/ doesn't work so well, and it's so close to your native /ts/ anyways, we might as well use that.

That's why I think 'ts' is closer to the 'j' than 'y' is. In terms of their phonetic features, they're both affricates, and they both have a plosive coronal (ie, alveolar or postalveolar) start. And we have precedent for devoicing plosives (kunsìp), and turning postalveolars into alveolars ('ìnglìsì). 'Y' has no plosive, fricative, or coronal features.

Second, the first 'a' in "Japanese". That part's easy. We say /æ/, they say /æ/.

The rest falls in place easily. Although, now that I think about it, I might use Tsäpìniz rather than Tsäpaniz; I think the ì is closer to the schwa /ə/ than the a is. But I wouldn't quibble over how a schwa turns out.

As for nipxongo and nipxontute -- I like them (though I might go with nihongo and nihontute). Unfortunately, I can see no reason for the Na'vi to borrow nipon/nipxon/nihon into their language if they only have contact with English speakers. If some other clan on the other side of the moon is fighting a Japanese company, though, then it makes sense.

Prrntxe


Oeri Loräkx lu. Fpi ayutral plltxe oe.

Offline Prrton

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2009, 06:30:13 am »
ま〜〜複雑な話。(My! What a complex discussion.)

I agree that if the Na'vi were exposed to the concept of a people dwelling in a territory (kllpxìltu) on another world only by American English speakers that the first "name" for the new clan might derive from "Japanese." And, if that were the "transmission scenario" that the word would likely end up Tsäpanìzì. Most Americans (especially the pseudo-mercenary types in the film) would likely have an English "j" that would be too plosive for the Na'vi to hear as and assimilate to their "y". However, I also feel that since "first exposure" didn't seem to happen in the first film, it's just as likely that some Japanese-speaking person would end up introducing them to the new tute or sute. In that case a Japanese person (or anyone with native-level fluency) would likely use the word にほん (nihon) instead of にっぽん (nippon). The second pronunciation is highly "nationalistic" (in the politically tainted sense) and uncommon in everyday speech. If English went in as Ìnglìsì then I would not be surprised to hear the name for the Japanese language adopted as niho'ngo. While I like the playful nature of nipxon for にっぽん. The Na'vi ejective px is too strong for the "pp" of nippon (perhaps unless you're a politician—red in the face—promising again to an audience of almost none to save a country that by the age of Avatar based on the current birthrate will likely be on the verge of extinction.

Lìfyayä txeleri oel "nìTsäpanìzì plltxe"t fu "nìNiho'ngo plltxe"t ftxivey. Ulte fpìl oel futa fi'txeleri mì Nihon set kelku seri a Nihontute lu a 'awpol fu sutel tìftxeyfpi srung sivi zene.

どうでしょうか?決まった? :-\

PS: Ma Nuru. Oeru txoa livu futa oeri mì kìng Niho'ngoyä ngeyä nawma aylì'ufpi fa tìplltxe ke srung soli. ごめんなさいね。
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Offline Taronyu

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2009, 09:54:06 am »
I think Yapanisi is the correct transliteration for "Japanese" for the reasons nuru listed, but I still don't see why nipxongo wouldn't be the better choice if we're already translating "Japanese person" as nipxontute.  If we're going to go with Yapanisi, then we should keep it consistent by saying Yapanitute.

This is the way I'm looking at it:

Imagine you're a Na'vi learning English, maybe in Dr. Augustine's school. She tells you about the Japanese (maybe a Japanese mining company is working somewhere else on Pandora). You hear this word "Japanese". How would it sound to you? What would it sound like to Grace as you tried to say the word in your Na'vi accented English?

First the 'j'. Na'vi has only one affricate: ts. An affricate is a sound that starts as a plosive but is released as a fricative. They're even transcribed that way: /ts/ in Na'vi, and /tʃ/ and /dʒ/ ('ch' and 'j') in English. But there are no voiced plosives in Na'vi. That's why "gunship" became kunsìp. The /g/ was devoiced to /k/. There are also no postalveolar fricatives (/ʃ/ 'sh' and /ʒ/ 'zh'). So when Na'vi hear them, they replace them with alveolars (/s/ and /z/). That's how "English" became 'ìnglìsì. If they borrowed the word "beige" (a color not found on Pandora), it would probably become beyzì.

So, what to do with /dʒ/? I'd bet the /d/ would be devoiced to /t/. After that, /ʒ/ would slide forward to /z/, but /tz/ doesn't work so well, and it's so close to your native /ts/ anyways, we might as well use that.

That's why I think 'ts' is closer to the 'j' than 'y' is. In terms of their phonetic features, they're both affricates, and they both have a plosive coronal (ie, alveolar or postalveolar) start. And we have precedent for devoicing plosives (kunsìp), and turning postalveolars into alveolars ('ìnglìsì). 'Y' has no plosive, fricative, or coronal features.

Second, the first 'a' in "Japanese". That part's easy. We say /æ/, they say /æ/.

The rest falls in place easily. Although, now that I think about it, I might use Tsäpìniz rather than Tsäpaniz; I think the ì is closer to the schwa /ə/ than the a is. But I wouldn't quibble over how a schwa turns out.

As for nipxongo and nipxontute -- I like them (though I might go with nihongo and nihontute). Unfortunately, I can see no reason for the Na'vi to borrow nipon/nipxon/nihon into their language if they only have contact with English speakers. If some other clan on the other side of the moon is fighting a Japanese company, though, then it makes sense.

I think the last note there is most important - It's important to recognize that what we're not doing is importing a word for Japanese.

Beige is found on pandora - look at Seze closer.

Nippon isn't merely a political word, Prrton. Nor can the semantic value of that word be predicted, especially when you put it up against your predictions of a shrinking Japanese future.  Nihongo would have been the term for the language, however, I agree.

As per Ìnglìsì - We don't know that this is their borrowing for a fricative. It could be a contraction of ìnglìs and sì, to make english. Considering this is a hapax legomenon (a word that appears only once), it is assuming a whole lot to say that that is their transcription for borrowing fricatives.

Y might have been the borrowing for J, however. What you're suggesting is a shift from /dʒ/ to /tz/ to /ts/ - This is a change of manner, length of phoneme, and place of articulation. I think it makes more sense for them to merely change from /dʒ/ to /j/ - this is only a feature change that is minus consonantal. I refer you to Chomsky's SPE feature system. This sort of borrowing is also common, in attested languages.

Offline Prrntxe

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2009, 03:35:02 pm »
Y might have been the borrowing for J, however. What you're suggesting is a shift from /dʒ/ to /tz/ to /ts/ - This is a change of manner, length of phoneme, and place of articulation. I think it makes more sense for them to merely change from /dʒ/ to /j/ - this is only a feature change that is minus consonantal. I refer you to Chomsky's SPE feature system. This sort of borrowing is also common, in attested languages.

Minus-consonantal isn't the only change; There's also +continuant, +sonorant, -strident, -delayed release, and -coronal. /dʒ/ -> /ts/ is only -voice, and +anterior/-distributed.

I think what we really need is some evidence from contact linguistics, a field I'm not really familiar with [shrugs].
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Offline Taronyu

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2009, 05:35:06 pm »
I'd still place that in the anterior area. Coronal is variable. +sonorant could be argued to be the same as +consonant. Delayed release isn't as much a deal as I think people show it is.

But no, you're right, and I'm wrong. I'm not trying to offer excuses. Thanks for correcting me. :)

I know a bit about contact linguistics. I'll look up some articles on it when I'm back near my linguistics books.

Offline Prrton

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2009, 05:44:28 pm »

As per Ìnglìsì - We don't know that this is their borrowing for a fricative. It could be a contraction of ìnglìs and sì, to make english.

 
 >:( but a FRIENDLY  >:( ...

Frommer does not allow [-s] (cf: 1. Consonants) in syllable-final position. Therefore it seems most logical to me that Ìnglìsì derives unambiguously from "English". (To put a little icing on the cake, (Oer'txoa), [sɪ] is "and" (connecting parallel attributes/nouns/verbs in close succession à la big & small, male & female, hunter & weaver, hunt & eat -- while ulte joins more complete phrases (e.g. "Kìyevame ulte Eywa ngahu livu") This is only a THEORY on my part based on canon and the "songs" from the Survival Guide (cf: Nga lu win sì txur = "You are fast and strong.") This is all just a theory on my part as for the different usages. Please don't smite me just for this! :'( ) while si [si] is the verb "to make/do". They are different words with completely different meanings. (I have an additional theory that many of the typists of our community are lax about making the distinction due to their presumed lack of facility with producing diacritics deftly using Microsoft's standard keyboard layouts. (Nìyol r-iv-ey Äppul!) This may even eventually kill the phonemic distinction in the language ( :'( ) as the American typewriter platform robbed Thai of two consonants (ฅ, ฃ) all those many years ago. (NB: I'm exaggerating. This sad situation only led to modifications in orthography standards. And, the good news is that the two "lost k.s" are back as of the digital age. (Irayo ma Yunikotx!  :D ) But nobody other than historical linguists use them much. :'( )

Ha "to make English"yä ral "Ìnglìsì"ru ts-iv-un lu ke.kxawm nìtxan nang!

Please don't smite me.
Please don't smite me.
Please don't smite me.  :-*

Quote
Considering this is a hapax legomenon (a word that appears only once), it is assuming a whole lot to say that that is their transcription for borrowing fricatives.
I'm just hypothesizing based on languages I know:

Japanese does not allow final s, z, sh, ch, j, l... the list goes on forever (literally) with the exception of "n".

ベース bēsu "base" or "vase"
ベースボール bēsubōru "baseball"
チェンジ chenji "change"
ジャパニーズ japaniizu Japanese
バッジ bajji "badge"
ワッチ wacchi "watch"

Both u and i are easily devoiced in modern Japanese (especially in the Kantō area around Tōkyō). They come out as little more than some extra air. Sometimes u is more contextually lose-able than i and vice versa.

In my mind, Na'vi's ì is its weakest vocalic player, so there it is stuck on the illegal backside of s- in Ìnglìsì where s is the best candidate to stand in for English's "sh".

PS: Fì'u tsam txepyä lu, srak? Txo ha, oe ye'rìn h-ìy-um futa oel fp-er-ìl.  :-\

Ulte nìmun oel plltxe:

Please don't smite me.
Please don't smite me.
Please don't smite me.  :-*

Kìyevame. (...kxawm...)

_____________________________
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 06:03:26 pm by Prrton »

Offline Taronyu

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2009, 08:29:34 pm »
Frommer does not allow [-s] (cf: 1. Consonants) in syllable-final position. Therefore it seems most logical to me that Ìnglìsì derives unambiguously from "English". (To put a little icing on the cake, (Oer'txoa), [sɪ] is "and" (connecting parallel attributes/nouns/verbs in close succession à la big & small, male & female, hunter & weaver, hunt & eat -- while ulte joins more complete phrases (e.g. "Kìyevame ulte Eywa ngahu livu") This is only a THEORY on my part based on canon and the "songs" from the Survival Guide (cf: Nga lu win sì txur = "You are fast and strong.") This is all just a theory on my part as for the different usages. Please don't smite me just for this! :'( ) while si [si] is the verb "to make/do". They are different words with completely different meanings. (I have an additional theory that many of the typists of our community are lax about making the distinction due to their presumed lack of facility with producing diacritics deftly using Microsoft's standard keyboard layouts. (Nìyol r-iv-ey Äppul!) This may even eventually kill the phonemic distinction in the language ( :'( ) as the American typewriter platform robbed Thai of two consonants (ฅ, ฃ) all those many years ago. (NB: I'm exaggerating. This sad situation only led to modifications in orthography standards. And, the good news is that the two "lost k.s" are back as of the digital age. (Irayo ma Yunikotx!  :D ) But nobody other than historical linguists use them much. :'( )

I fail to see how it is not possible that ìnglìsì can be derived from ìnglìs and sì. I think it's a valid point. No, not the most valid ;). But possible.

Please don't smite me.
Please don't smite me.
Please don't smite me.  :-*

I'd have to be a massive kawnga tutan to smite you everytime I disagreed.
Quote
Considering this is a hapax legomenon (a word that appears only once), it is assuming a whole lot to say that that is their transcription for borrowing fricatives.
I'm just hypothesizing based on languages I know:

Japanese does not allow final s, z, sh, ch, j, l... the list goes on forever (literally) with the exception of "n".

ベース bēsu "base" or "vase"
ベースボール bēsubōru "baseball"
チェンジ chenji "change"
ジャパニーズ japaniizu Japanese
バッジ bajji "badge"
ワッチ wacchi "watch"

Both u and i are easily devoiced in modern Japanese (especially in the Kantō area around Tōkyō). They come out as little more than some extra air. Sometimes u is more contextually lose-able than i and vice versa.

In my mind, Na'vi's ì is its weakest vocalic player, so there it is stuck on the illegal backside of s- in Ìnglìsì where s is the best candidate to stand in for English's "sh".

"in your mind" is not the best reasoning, dude. If anything, /i/ is the most losable, as it is more extreme. Japanese doesn't allow final anything, except for /n/. No consonants syllable finally. But they do break this. Look up rendaku: it's a lenition factor that happens in Japanese. Fairly complex, so I won't describe it here.

PS: Fì'u tsam txepyä lu, srak? Txo ha, oe ye'rìn h-ìy-um futa oel fp-er-ìl. 

Maybe I'm coming off poorly, dude. I  just try to add suggestions. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh. :)

Ke hum, oeyä tsmukan! Ayoel ngati fitseng new!

Offline Prrntxe

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2009, 11:28:36 pm »
Regarding  /ts/ vs /j/...

I just realized we've been going about this all wrong. Next time someone watches the movie, they should just listen to the way the Tsahìk says "Jake Sully" after she first meets him. Nothing like a little field work to settle this kind of question.

To anyone who's planning to see the movie again soon, if you hear how she says it, let us know!
Oeri Loräkx lu. Fpi ayutral plltxe oe.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2009, 12:13:01 am »
Regarding  /ts/ vs /j/...

I just realized we've been going about this all wrong. Next time someone watches the movie, they should just listen to the way the Tsahìk says "Jake Sully" after she first meets him. Nothing like a little field work to settle this kind of question.

To anyone who's planning to see the movie again soon, if you hear how she says it, let us know!

You, my friend, are brilliant 8)

Offline Tengfya swizaw

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2009, 12:26:10 am »
I just saw the movie (again) today, and was watching for how she said it (not because of the above posts, but because I remembered the alphabet didn't have a j character and wanted to know how she would say it) and for the most part, she seemed to pronounce it as a sort of "tsh" sound, like she was saying "tshakesully". Like a human j, but less aggressive and more slurred. That help?


Here's to not knowing exactly what you're saying and having fun with it.

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Offline Coda

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Re: A few sentences in Na'vi, please check it out
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2009, 12:33:49 am »
If I remember correctly, when the other young hunters are cheering Jake on when he first makes tsahaylu with his ikran, they say something like "yeyk'suli."  It's been a few days, though.

 

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