Author Topic: Duration and Topical  (Read 2239 times)

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Offline Eltu Lefngap Makto

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Duration and Topical
« on: January 25, 2011, 11:12:56 am »
Fo verar pxezìsìt luke tsam, kip Aramìri sì Yisraelìri.

Questions:

    How do you express duration, as in "FOR three year"?
    Is there no adposition for "between" as in 'between you and me', not 'in the space between'?
    What is the right way to say to handle the late subject above?  I tried topical for excitement!
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Offline Lisa

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2011, 07:06:21 pm »
I think the answer to your duration question is in this post:

Quote from: Frommer, 1 Dec ’10, 9:56
First of all, the way you express duration is to add -o to the time word:

zìsìto amrr = 'for five years'

ayzìsìto = 'for years'

Oeru syaw "Tirea Ikran" kop slä frakrrmi layu oe "Grammar Skxawng"   :)

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2011, 09:28:38 pm »
    What is the right way to say to handle the late subject above?  I tried topical for excitement!

Based on Frommer's habits, as well as the habits of topicals in languages that use them regularly, topics should stay at the beginning of a clause (at least, no later than a conjunction).  The single exception to this we've seen from Frommer is in verse.

Given Na'vi's free word order, there's no particular problem with delayed subjects taking their usual case marking.  In your example, since kip is an adposition, the nouns that go with it shouldn't have any sort of case marking.

Right now, I'm really not sure what the best phrasing is for this idea of "between you and me" would be.
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Offline Eltu Lefngap Makto

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2011, 10:24:08 pm »
Irayo, wm.a.  So, the new, best version of my sentence would be

Verar pxezìsìto luke tsam, kip Aram sì Yisrael.

?
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2011, 10:41:29 pm »
We have an adposition for 'between', namely mìkam So why not:

Verar pxezìsìto luke tsam, mìkam ayArav sì Yisrael

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Offline Eltu Lefngap Makto

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2011, 11:02:24 pm »
Irayo.  Now I can't remember where I got the sense that mìkam was only spacial, never "betwixt".  I should go with that until I hear otherwise.  On to my second sentence!   :D
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Offline Sireayä mokri

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2011, 05:35:43 am »
I feel like "Pxezìsìto ayArav sì Yisrael verar rivey (livu) luke tsam..." would sound better here.
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Offline Eltu Lefngap Makto

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2011, 07:07:31 am »
<backs up> ... So, var can/ought not be used without another verb?
S.M., you don't think mìkam is needed?
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Offline Sireayä mokri

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2011, 07:20:29 am »
I'm sure that it's legal to use mìkam this way.
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2011, 08:00:54 am »
The classic test for a preposition is <preposition> him. If the preposition makes sense with the word 'him' following, it is a preposition from an English standpoint. Now, 'between' is a little different, because it acts like a preposition, but makes no sense with 'him'. Its almost like kxamlä, which makes more sense, in that something can go through you. But it is hard to imagine something going between you. That said, mìkam works in sentences like kxetse mìkam mehinam because you can put your tail between your (two) legs. The bottom line is that, unlike most prepositions, 'between' requires two of something.

The dictionary gives the definition of mìkam- as simply 'between', with no qualifiers. Wm. Annis's reference grammar, which gives additional notes on many of the adpositions, gives no additional details for mìkam-. So, to use mìkam- in this way, to describe something as 'between two states' makes sense and does not seem to violate what we know.

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Offline Sireayä mokri

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2011, 08:14:15 am »
Mìkam means in the middle (lit.), and that's why I have doubt.
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2011, 12:50:20 pm »
Mìkam means in the middle (lit.), and that's why I have doubt.

Where are you finding that definition?

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Offline Sireayä mokri

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2011, 12:54:34 pm »
means in, on, kxam means middle.
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2011, 01:14:20 pm »
And mì+ causes a lenition, so it's kam.
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2011, 06:39:55 pm »
Its interesting to see how this may have been derived. An adposition made from an adposition. That said, being a Frommerian word, and the definition being given as 'between' (in the wiki, as well as the dictionary and Wm. Annis's reference grammar), I would go with what we have as an official definition, and not what can be deduced by looking at the derivation of the word. This is precisely why prefixes like nì- and tì- are unproductive. And I think mì+ would fall in the came category even though we don't use adpositions that way.

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2011, 06:47:27 pm »
Its interesting to see how this may have been derived. An adposition made from an adposition.

No :) kxam is a noun ;)
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Offline Sireayä mokri

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2011, 08:26:41 am »
This is precisely why prefixes like nì- and tì- are unproductive.

Nì- is productive for adjectives.

But what I mean is that we can only guess without actual conformation from Frommer. So, I would avoid using it that way for now.
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Offline Eltu Lefngap Makto

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2011, 04:36:11 pm »
Trying to wrap up,

Pxezìsìto Aram sì Yisrael verar rivey luke tsam.

steers clear of the mìkam issue and is a good sentence?  (By the way, it was Aram and Israel, not the Arabs and Israel).  I would reverse translate it, "For three years, Aram and Israel continued living without war."  Copacetic?  :-\
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2011, 12:05:40 am »
Its interesting to see how this may have been derived. An adposition made from an adposition.

No :) kxam is a noun ;)

Correct, but mì- is an adposition.

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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Duration and Topical
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2011, 03:39:50 am »
There are actually several adpositions with roots in other words.

Nemfa = ne-mì-pa'o (Two adpositions and a noun there, though mìfa is itself lexicalized as a noun or adverb)
Takip = ta-kip
Kxamlä = kxam-ìlä
pximaw = pxi-maw
pxisre = pxi-sre
rofa = ro-pa'o

While sometimes in languages through usage words get meanings a little different from their root, it is not something you could necessarily call just by looking at the definition.
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