Author Topic: My first attempt  (Read 939 times)

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Offline Jairo

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My first attempt
« on: February 14, 2010, 01:51:17 pm »
Hi, this is my first attempt to translate a text into Na'vi (and use the trilinear gloss). Could you help me to check it?

Oel frakrr nerueime. Txo oeri pivllt'e lì'uti akeeyawr, ayngal eyawr ivseii.
Oe-l frakrr n<er>u<ei>me. Txo oe-ri p<iv>llt'e lì'u-ti a-ke-eyawr, ay+nga-l eyawr <iv>s<ei>i.
I-ERG always learn<IPFV><LAU>. If I-TOP speak<SJV> word-ACC ATTR-NEG-correct, PL-you-ERG correct-VERBZ<SJV><LAU>.
"I'm always learning. If I write something wrong, please correct me."

Irayo!
I'm always learning. If I write something wrong in any language, please correct me.

Offline Plumps

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2010, 04:47:33 pm »
Ma Jairo,

I'll try but don't take my word for it being correct entirely ;)

First off, I'm not sure about the intransitive/transitive issue here. If you say "I'm learning somthing" then that would be transitive but since you state a fact here without saying what you learn, I don't know if you still need the ERG-marker...
Also not sure if it makes sense to use the imperfective aspect together with "always"...

The infix positions for nume are n<er>um<ei>e
"speak" has the ejective tx, not the glottal stop t' => plltxe
"wrong" (whether it's rightly translated from one of Karyu Pawl's mails) is keyawr (so the thought was good but one e has to go ;) )
I'm not sure whether you can combine an adjective with si (that is, if eyawr is an adjective...) but you can make a noun out of it and combine it with tìng (give)
Even if you would take si you have to remember that it counts as an intransitive verb and with the laudative infix it becomes seiyi (I'm not sure what it will become with an additional -iv- infix...)

I'd say:
Oe nerumeie frakrr. Txo oeri pivlltxe lì'ut(i) akeyawr, tìng tìeyawr oeru, rutxe.
I learn<IMPF><LAUD> always. if I-TOP speak<SJV> word-ACC ADJ-wrong, give NMLZ-correct I-DAT, please.
I'm always learning. If I speak a wrong word, please correct me (give a correction to me).

Hope that helped :) - wait for confirmation.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 04:45:12 am by Plumps83 »

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2010, 05:20:16 am »
We do have an example of adjective + si in the weaving song from ASG...  "Oeru teya si" (Fills me) - so I think "eyawr si" could be a fair use.  "Oeru eyawr si" then would be "correct me".  And "si" with subjunctive + laudative would be "siveiyi".  Other than that I agree with the comments.

To address the imperfective + always, I don't see why it wouldn't make sense...  Imperfective can indicate an ongoing action, but it doesn't mean the action doesn't end at some point.  So adding in always can clarify that.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Plumps

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 05:27:05 am »
We do have an example of adjective + si in the weaving song from ASG...  "Oeru teya si" (Fills me) - so I think "eyawr si" could be a fair use.  "Oeru eyawr si" then would be "correct me".  And "si" with subjunctive + laudative would be "siveiyi".  Other than that I agree with the comments.

To address the imperfective + always, I don't see why it wouldn't make sense...  Imperfective can indicate an ongoing action, but it doesn't mean the action doesn't end at some point.  So adding in always can clarify that.

Yes, I completely forgot about the Weaving Song - thanks for reminding me, ma omängum :)

And just for clarification: Has Frommer actually stated that eyawr/keyawr are "right/wrong" (correct/incorrect), i.e. that these words are adjectives?
NB: Seems strange to me to derive a positive aspect (right/correct) by negation from a negative aspect (wrong/incorrect) ... but that's how languages could work, right?


EDIT: clearance about right/wrong
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 12:31:27 pm by Plumps83 »

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2010, 05:34:30 am »
Not sure where you get eyawr = wrong and keyawr = right.  Frommer's usage was eyawr = right and keyawr = wrong.

Quote
KEYAWR:
Both -iyve- and -ìyev- are acceptable

EYAWR:
Both -iyev- and -ìyev- are acceptable

The second line is the correction, so eyawr in that usage is saying it is correct.  AFAIK however that's all we have on them...  He normally includes the meaning and stress on new words he tosses at us, but I don't recall seeing any for these words.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Plumps

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2010, 07:36:31 am »
Kxangangang! Tsap'alute!!!

I don't know where that twist of thought came from :P

Irayo

Offline Jairo

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2010, 09:30:30 am »
Thank you for the explanations! I was in a dead end; now I know what I should study next.  :)
I'm always learning. If I write something wrong in any language, please correct me.

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2010, 12:36:05 pm »
Just my thoughts.

Quote
Oe nerumeie frakrr. Txo oeri pivlltxe lì'ut(i) akeyawr, tìng tìeyawr oeru, rutxe.
I learn<IMPF><LAUD> always. if I-TOP speak<SJV> word-ACC ADJ-wrong, give NMLZ-correct I-DAT, please.
I'm always learning. If I speak a wrong word, please correct me (give a correction to me).

Why there's the topical in the second sentence? It may be ok, but it's surely not necessary, because you are talking about yourself in the first sentence already and don't change the topic, so it's most likely abundant to make the subject of the second sentence a topical.

Until now, the only attested accusative form of "lì'u" is "lì'ut". We still don't know, whether -t and -ti are free to use just according personal likes or dislikes. For now it's saver to use "lì'ut".

I'm not sure, whether the imperative may be used without any subject. We don't have much evidence of imperatives, but what we have, seems to tell us, that even in imperatives there is usually a subject needed. For instance in the "Hunt Song" the line "So choose one ..." is "Ha ftxey 'awpot ... ayngal". And the only imperative used by Frommer so far (in AMFP) doesn't include a subject directly, but it is linked with a vocative, following immediately after the imperative sentence: "Spivaw oeti rutxe, ma oeyä eylan". So it's at least not wrong to include the subject into an imperative phrase. Maybe it's even necessary to name the one, who get's the order.

Like omängum I too do believe, that the "si + eyawr"-construct would be more correct than "tìng tìeyawr". We don't have any evidence, that "tìng" can be combined with a nominalized verb at all. The few things we know about the tìng-construct suggest, that this is used for very idiomatic expressions only.

Considering all this I would suggest:

Oe nerumeie frakrr. Txo pivlltxe lì'ut akeyawr oel, eyawr si nga oer(u), rutxe.


« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 12:40:25 pm by Na'rìghawnu »

Offline Jairo

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2010, 05:09:34 pm »
First off, I'm not sure about the intransitive/transitive issue here. If you say "I'm learning somthing" then that would be transitive but since you state a fact here without saying what you learn, I don't know if you still need the ERG-marker...

I thought the transitivity was determined by the meaning. If there's an implicit object, can't one say the verb is transitive?

Does anybody here know if this happens in Basque?
I'm always learning. If I write something wrong in any language, please correct me.

Offline Plumps

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2010, 05:32:53 pm »
I thought the transitivity was determined by the meaning. If there's an implicit object, can't one say the verb is transitive?

Up until now, I used it that way as well.

Offline wm.annis

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2010, 05:59:06 pm »
I thought the transitivity was determined by the meaning. If there's an implicit object, can't one say the verb is transitive?

Yes.  The matter is a bit complex in Na'vi for two additional reasons.  First, we don't have Frommer's official, full dictionary, where he marks transitivity more clearly for us.  Second, he allows a construction where an inherently transitive verb does not take the ergative.  This is used when the direct object is suppressed as irrelevant, as in oe taron, I hunt as a very general statement.  When other ergative languages do something like this, the construction is called an antipassive.

Quote
Does anybody here know if this happens in Basque?

Or Georgian?  ;)
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Jairo

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Re: My first attempt
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2010, 12:19:14 pm »
First, we don't have Frommer's official, full dictionary, where he marks transitivity more clearly for us.

I didn't even know that it existed. I suppose it's constantly changing until release.
I'm always learning. If I write something wrong in any language, please correct me.

 

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