Author Topic: Na'vi practice thread  (Read 13451 times)

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Offline Sireayä mokri

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #240 on: August 26, 2011, 10:35:51 am »
the genitive here doesn't appear to be incorrect :)

To me this usage does seem a little weird here. What would "Na'viyä taronyu" mean? The one who hunts the Na'vi or the one who hunts for the Na'vi? So, I'd go with topic.
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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #241 on: August 26, 2011, 11:23:25 am »
the genitive here doesn't appear to be incorrect :)

To me this usage does seem a little weird here. What would "Na'viyä taronyu" mean? The one who hunts the Na'vi or the one who hunts for the Na'vi? So, I'd go with topic.
You meant Na'vi hunter or hunter of Na'vi, isn't it? The first one should be taronyu leNa'vi, second one taronyu Na'viyä. Well, that's why I'm unsure....
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #242 on: August 26, 2011, 11:53:36 am »
but is not genitive for ownership and possession?

I would get:

leNa'via taronyu: a Na'vi hunter ie a hunter of Na'vi descent/race
Na'viyä taronyu: the Na'vi's hunter ie a hunter belonging to the Na'vi

it looks like the ambiguity is still there with using genitive as in English: your hunter. does it mean that you are prey and are being hunted, or that you are supervising a hunter and are responsible for him?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 12:00:15 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Sireayä mokri

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #243 on: August 26, 2011, 12:09:26 pm »
leNa'via taronyu: a Na'vi hunter ie a hunter of Na'vi descent/race
Na'viyä taronyu: the Na'vi's hunter ie a hunter belonging to the Na'vi

it looks like the ambiguity is still there with using genitive

My point exactly, that's why I'd use topic — to avoid it.
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #244 on: August 26, 2011, 12:16:50 pm »
That is an interesting use of genitive, in that one  use  of genitive usage can be considered 'of <thing>' . But genitive is usually used as a possessive, in which case it's kind of strange here.

And back to the 'compartmentalized' usage I was talking about. By putting the species list in a attributed clause (if clause is the right word here), it avoided things like that odd genitive usage (which I never thought of).

I wouldn't even begin to know where to look in the canon for such things.

So this begs a question: Does an attribution using a have to be a complete clause (verb plus argument(s))? Or, can it be any type of phrase one wants to cast as an adjective?

So then, am I correct in assuming this is grammatically incorrect?

(*)Fpamìl Oel futa Tewkiri lu  sìltsana taronyu yerik sì talioang

Although I did try to translate the meaning here, I guess I still didn't quite succeed  :(

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #245 on: August 26, 2011, 12:25:31 pm »

So this begs a question: Does an attribution using a have to be a complete clause (verb plus argument(s))? Or, can it be any type of phrase one wants to cast as an adjective?

it is always for clauses, containing a verb at the least. (whether assumed or not)

Quote
So then, am I correct in assuming this is grammatically incorrect?

(*)Fpamìl Oel futa Tewkiri lu  sìltsana taronyu yerik sì talioang

Although I did try to translate the meaning here, I guess I still didn't quite succeed  :(

that doesnt look quite right to me. you got random nouns floating around at the end and im not sure what the topic here is acieving. I still stand by my adaption. not saying it is the ONLY way, but it is at least not breaking any rules or using any weird unfamiliar structure
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 12:29:28 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Tanri

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #246 on: August 26, 2011, 02:41:15 pm »
Fpamìl oel futa Tewki lu sìltsana taronyu ayyerikä sì salioangä ?
The genitives are correct grammatically, but clearly the meaning depends of native language of those who write/read it. For example, this is exactly the same way I would say that in Czech. But the others can be easily confused, because even a singular or plural version can slightly alter the meaning for me.
taronyu tuteyä - a hunter that belongs to the person
taronyu suteyä - a hunter that hunts the people
For this reason, I would prefer Tirea Aean's version, Fpamìl Oel futa Tewkil taron yerikit sì talioangit nìltsan.

Or, add a verb to make a full attributive clause,
Fpamìl Oel futa Tewkiri lu sìltsana taronyu a taron yerikit sì talioangit.
, if a meaning close to the literal translation is required.
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #247 on: August 26, 2011, 03:03:26 pm »
Or, add a verb to make a full attributive clause,
Fpamìl Oel futa Tewkiri lu sìltsana taronyu a taron yerikit sì talioangit.
, if a meaning close to the literal translation is required.

I like that. It fulfills the intent of the original English meaning, and it follows a principle that I did not previously understand-- that an attributive has to be a real clause.

Yawey ngahu!
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #248 on: August 26, 2011, 03:54:36 pm »
I would prefer Tirea Aean's version, Fpamìl Oel futa Tewkil taron yerikit sì talioangit nìltsan.

Or, add a verb to make a full attributive clause,
Fpamìl Oel futa Tewkiri lu sìltsana taronyu a taron yerikit sì talioangit.
, if a meaning close to the literal translation is required.

I would vote for either of those equally.

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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #249 on: September 03, 2012, 09:50:33 am »
POKES LIFE BACK INTO THIS THREAD!   ;D
(Time to put it back into use for non-proverb examples...)

Corrections/Comments Please!!!


Ngeyä swizaw kawkrr tswayayon ngay txo ngeyä pxun ke lu yey.

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #250 on: September 03, 2012, 11:07:16 am »
Ngeyä swizaw kawkrr tswayayon ngay txo ngeyä pxun ke lu yey.
It already exists, as Sweylu txo ngeyä pxun aftär livu yey txo nivew tivem nìltsan (tengkrr taron). See Na'vi proverbs topic.

Offline Tanri

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #251 on: September 03, 2012, 02:49:39 pm »
Ngeyä swizaw kawkrr tswayayon ngay txo ngeyä pxun ke lu yey.
Only little correction necessary:
Ngeyä swizaw kawkrr ke tswayayon ngay nìeyawr, txo ngeyä pxun ke lu/livu yey.

nìeyawr - ngay is a noun, and we want an adverb here. But nìngay isn't the right one for this meaning ("correctly"), so I chose eyawr, and because there is no adverbial form in dictionary, I derived it nì-eyawr. The nì- derivation is productive with adjectives - we can create adverbs this way if they aren't in the dictionary.

lu/livu - several days ago I would insert ‹iv› infix after "txo" without hesitation. But Blue Elf found a notice about this (http://forum.learnnavi.org/am/plltxe-mi-na%27vi-(oee-a-na%27vi-ke)/msg554221/#msg554221), that this infix is required in future conditions only, and can be omitted in general conditions. I am not sure what case is this, maybe both variants are allowed:
ke tswayayon ..., txo ngeyä pxun ke livu.. as a future condition (if your arm will be not straight, your arrow will not fly correctly)
ke tswayayon ..., txo ngeyä pxun ke lu.. as a general condition (if your arm is not straight, your arrow will not fly correctly)
Tìvawmìri txopu rä’ä si. Nrr!

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #252 on: September 03, 2012, 02:52:17 pm »
Ngeyä swizaw kawkrr ke tswayayon ngay nìeyawr, txo ngeyä pxun ke lu/livu yey.

nìyawr ;)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #253 on: September 03, 2012, 02:58:20 pm »
Ngeyä swizaw kawkrr ke tswayayon ngay nìeyawr, txo ngeyä pxun ke lu/livu yey.

nìyawr ;)

imo nìyawr should be added to the dictionary (since it is not there and it has been widely used as if it is for ages)

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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #254 on: September 03, 2012, 08:59:06 pm »
Irayo for all the discussion!


I do have one follow up question.  "nìyawr"

If  ngay > nìngay...

Then I follow that eyawr > nìeyawr with the same construction pattern.

But apparently it's nìyawr through some sort of lentition.  Is this to clean up the word as a special contraction?
Wondering if there is a posted rule/reference on this?  Specifically, are there similar words with this same contraction?


And "ke tswayayon..., txo ngeyä pxun ke lu..." is the meaning closest to what I was looking for.  
"If your arm is not straight (present tense), then your arrow will not fly correctly (future tense).
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 11:10:46 am by Taronyu Leleioae »

Offline Eana Unil

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #255 on: September 03, 2012, 09:19:38 pm »
Kaltxì si oe ngar, ma Taronyu Leleioae,

I'd say it's not lenition's "fault" here, just vowel contraction, so to say. Just guessing, though. :)

And it's also tìyawr, maybe the same happened there or maybe there has just a vowel been added to the "-yawr" root to get "eyawr". :D
Contraction of vowels/consonants happens quite often in the Na'vi language, just look at "poltxe" and so on.

Unfortunately I'm not aware of an officially posted rule on Karyu Pawls Blog or somewhere else, maybe someone else is.

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #256 on: September 04, 2012, 01:09:21 am »
Well, when new words are created using existing ones, some letters are often trimmed out, but there is no official rule, AFAIK. So it is up to Paul's decision, all these derived words must be approved by him. We are not free to create our own ones.
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Offline Tanri

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #257 on: September 04, 2012, 08:31:02 am »
Well, when new words are created using existing ones, some letters are often trimmed out, but there is no official rule, AFAIK. So it is up to Paul's decision, all these derived words must be approved by him. We are not free to create our own ones.
This is exactly why I used nìeyawr, not the shortened version - until the nìey.. -> nìy.. wowel assimilation takes place amongst confirmed rules.
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #258 on: October 18, 2013, 12:03:32 pm »
Tse, fìkìng letsranten talmerkup mawkrra tìpängkxo ahìm lì'uteri alu nìyawr. ;D
Nìteng, fìkìng steng lu na fìkìng alu Pivängkxo nìNa'vi Ko, kefyak?
(Oe may' zamivunge tìreyt fìtseng.) :-X
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 02:53:58 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Na'vi practice thread
« Reply #259 on: October 18, 2013, 12:21:19 pm »
I forgot completely about the existence of this thread.

EDIT: Oh. That's because this thread is several years old and it has been posted on today finally after over a year.

And looking back at OP, this looks identical in every way to this thread:

http://forum.learnnavi.org/beginners/pivangkxo-ninavi-ko!-beginner-navi-chat-thread/

What's the difference, and why two threads? ??? :-\

DOUBLE EDIT: 7700 posts. :D
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 12:27:04 pm by Tirea Aean »

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